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Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

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Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#201
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ironic that a couple of sentences after "accusing rich countries of charging too much" he's complaining about the WTO ruling "India was illegally supporting domestic over international solar producers." Either the evil foreigners are too expensive or too cheap requiring protection for local producers. Or both at the same time maybe.

Or maybe India does not want to bleed billions away with barely anything to show for it (Yes, they get the infrastructure, but the tech is proprietary and foreign and potentially an endless drain) Instead they try to develop inhouse production that they own and have to cover the initial capital costs. There was a theory in ~19th century that Portugal/Spain trading wine for machinery from Great Britain mean it was equ…

> Instead they try to develop inhouse production that they own and have to cover the initial capital costs.

Then provide tax credits and advantageous financing. A local content minimum insures that the local industry faces no incentive to become competitive and is simply a sinecure for well connected and politically powerful industrialists.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#202
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not relevant to people who are prepared to sacrifice convenience for cost. Especially if night-time prices are directly linked to supply. Smarter devices will become available that use energy when its cheaply available. Long time storage will improve and spread the load, probably from smaller to larger scale. Base load is really an artefact of system and usage inefficiencies, not some inherent problem with renewa…

Exactly! If daytime electricity was cheap enough I would double the size of my refrigerator and fill it with water to increase thermal mass. At night time it would stay cold enough to not use any power. Almost all energy except lighting is good to go. My laptop already has enough power to last the evening. I just need a few watts for the router.

For sure. I lived in a house with solar + a few old car batteries and it wasn't bad at all.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#203

"Solar energy prices hit a new record low in January with the auction of 420 megawatts in Rajasthan at 4.34 rupees a kilowatt-hour. In comparison coal tariffs range between 3-5 rupees/kWh." So the headline here is, as is usually the case with articles in this space, misleading at best. It's slightly cheaper than the highest-end coal, but dramatically more expensive - nearly 1.5X more - than the lower end. Overall, it…

True, but the externalities for coal are huge, as are the hidden subsidies. A fair comparison would also include those: https://www.pik-potsdam.de/members/edenh/publications-1/copy... The important thing to note is that politicians are hopefully willing to act on this.

Exactly. Huge externalities such as rising sea-levels, ocean acidification, etc. etc.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#204
i don't get it, countries export electricity for ages. other than money and infrastructure, what are we missing so that we all, as a united humanity, use our shared sun to export, on a daily basis, electricity from the sun lit part of the planet to the other one. why must we still wait on the genius who will revolutionize batteries, considering we already have non stop sunlight. is this lack of political will? or is such a planetary scale effort impossible?

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#205
post #88
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wind is getting cheaper and more reliable, too. I think I read that it's because we're building bigger wind turbines.

Wind actually provides power at night. Currently at night wind has to compete against cheap base load power which tends to be subsidized. If coal and nuclear plants are phased out the economics of wind is very attractive.

Absent any credible options you would certainly expect to be able to sell whatever power people could get their hands on.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#206
post #57
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These problems pale in comparison partly because these sustainable forms of technology aren't being used any meaningful scale yet. How much area do we have to cover with solar panels to power a largish metropolitan area?

The best location for covering a large area of land for purposes of solar energy would arguably be a desert. "90% of the world’s population lives within range of a desert and could be supplied with solar electricity from there", says this article, which also shows you how much needs to be covered to supply the entire globe in theory: http://cleantechnica.com/2009/06/22/half-a-trillion-dollars-...

The desert is full of life that would be impacted by these panels.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11524691 Why does solar always need batteries? These are not "advances". India is adding 20k MW of solar and 10k MW of wind p.a. China is at 20+20. US at 20+20. Europe at 20+20. 30% of all new power capacity additions globally will be from renewables for the foreseeable future. Probably more. This is without "batteries". Without subsidies. The need for "baseload", "storage…

> The need for "baseload", "storage", or "the sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow" are red herrings. They are not relevant. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment, but how is my desire for electricity at night time "not relevant"?

Nobody is suggesting the grid go 100% solar.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#208
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not relevant to people who are prepared to sacrifice convenience for cost. Especially if night-time prices are directly linked to supply. Smarter devices will become available that use energy when its cheaply available. Long time storage will improve and spread the load, probably from smaller to larger scale. Base load is really an artefact of system and usage inefficiencies, not some inherent problem with renewa…

Exactly! If daytime electricity was cheap enough I would double the size of my refrigerator and fill it with water to increase thermal mass. At night time it would stay cold enough to not use any power. Almost all energy except lighting is good to go. My laptop already has enough power to last the evening. I just need a few watts for the router.

I live in central Texas and my biggest energy consumer is air conditioning. Rooftop solar makes a lot of sense for me because I use the most energy when the sun is shining. I've never seriously considered storage.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but the externalities for coal are huge, as are the hidden subsidies. A fair comparison would also include those: https://www.pik-potsdam.de/members/edenh/publications-1/copy... The important thing to note is that politicians are hopefully willing to act on this.

Exactly. Huge externalities such as rising sea-levels, ocean acidification, etc. etc.

Takes political mechanisms to enforce those costs on polluters, so it's really important for solar to beat coal even in the presence of this hidden subsidy.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#210
post #99
post #38

how does subsidy vs no-subsidy matter here?

It doesn't. The subsidies are used as a bootstrapping mechanism, the projections in the article indicate that as the market scales, costs of solar energy production will drop below coal.

thanks!
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