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Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

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Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#131
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> India can develop its solar energy sector by itself. Until the US sues them and the WTO rules against them. http://in.reuters.com/article/usa-india-solar-idINKCN0QV2FD2...

India wants 8% domestic production, and the US has a cry. What a bully. How does the WTO enforce that sort of ruling? India has The Bomb.

When South Africa (where I live), violated trade rules and put up barriers to US chicken imports, the US retaliated with barriers to the importation of some SA goods into the US. Eventually, SA gave in and removed the barriers.

IMHO Free trade of commodities (food, solar cells etc.) is a good thing.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#132

"Solar energy prices hit a new record low in January with the auction of 420 megawatts in Rajasthan at 4.34 rupees a kilowatt-hour. In comparison coal tariffs range between 3-5 rupees/kWh." So the headline here is, as is usually the case with articles in this space, misleading at best. It's slightly cheaper than the highest-end coal, but dramatically more expensive - nearly 1.5X more - than the lower end. Overall, it…

It is cost to implement a new renewable energy source (solar power) based power plant vs a non-renewable energy source (coal) based power plant. I would have been happy even if the cost to build a solar power plant was 10 times the cost of a coal based plant as the latter has a negative long term impact on health and environment. The very fact that it is just 1.5 times the lower end of coal tariff is something to be happy about.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it is still true, wind will be never be able to compete with nuclear for the simple fact that wind blows when it blows and you need energy when you need it. Unless we develop a technology that is able to cope with the huge spikes that windmills put on the energy grid and store energy in a very efficient way (including gaining the energy back when we need it) wind will not be more than few percentage of the overal…

Note that nuclear is also not exactly grid-friendly, since you cannot quickly change the power output of a nuclear power plant. They are useful for base load and nothing else.

The Ludington Pumped Storage plant (the largest in the world at the time of construction) was built to store nuclear and use it for peaking.

So the same storage tech that is needed to increase the share of renewables we can rely on also makes things better for nuclear.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#134
post #104

Any country using fossil fuels is stuck in the past; solar is the future, economies are driven by energy, and refusing to act on this is irresponsible.

So..., every industrial country in the world?...

I wish I lived in an alternate reality where the hippies and greens didn't effectively scuttle nuclear power development.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#135
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Short version: Agriculture is one of the classic areas where countries usually said "no, we want to be independent, all the talk about free markets aside" .. That was the case when GATT[1] was still active (a framework, which built the base of the WTO), then came the Uruquay round[2] which established the WTO and stated that we now really, really have to find a way to include agriculture, which lead to the Doha round…

IMO it makes quite a bit of sense to exclude a few areas from enforced free trade. Otherwise we could as well argue that countries must allow a free market for acquiring military services. The thing is, it's silly to only do this for agriculture. There's a few areas that are vital for a nation to have some sense of independence, and allowing the protection of energy infrastructure is certainly one of them. Don't get…

You need to be a pretty big country with a wide variety of natural resources to be truly independent (for instance, your "independent" agriculture is only independent if you have domestically produced fuel, fertilizer and machinery, etc. etc.) In today's world I think it's pretty tough (how many countries have their own chip fabs and how many don't? Chips go into a whole lot of products indirectly, etc.)

Of course having to protect this very wide range of domestic industries to maintain true independence will result in a huge loss of economic efficiency; so even if it is done right (without an "oops, we forgot the bit about the fertilizer" issue), not only do you have to be a rather large country with a lot of resources, you also have to accept a significantly lower standard of living and a degree of backwardness.

How much it helps I'm not sure; Britain for instance managed to feed itself during WWII even though it relied on its navy for food shipments and of course its cargo ships were constantly attacked. Certainly it did better than it would without a strong navy but with an independent domestic agriculture, since it would have been invaded.

On the other hand, presumably importing vitally important things without exporting vitally important things in return might put you in a bad bargaining position in international politics in times of peace, and maybe then domestic industries making sure that you can survive without imports are helpful; though even that doesn't seem like a huge problem unless you're importing from a cartel (and even very powerful cartels sometimes break down, the way OPEC did recently.)

As to agriculture - I sincerely think it's protected because producers simply bribe the people in the government; there was even research that the more concentrated and bigger ag producers are in a country, the more protected they are (even though a lot of the nominal arguments for protection are much stronger with many small producers than with few large ones typically employing fewer people), though I didn't look deeply into it and perhaps the researcher was biased by expecting this conclusion.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#136
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The headline's accurate in that India energy minister said "solar is now cheaper than coal." Doesn't necessarily mean solar is actually cheaper than coal.

He said that? Can you please provide the quote?

Ok - it seems he tweeted rather than said it:

>“Through transparent auctions with a ready provision of land, transmission and the like, solar tariffs have come down below thermal power cost,” Goyal said in a tweet.

http://cleantechnica.com/2016/01/22/solar-power-now-cheaper-...

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#137
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some other interesting economics at play. Solar is more suitable for local, small scale production for a few reasons including relative costs and the way those costs are distributed (capital cost vs variable cost). That in itself is interesting for all sorts of reasons, many of them applying to countries like India with infrastructure difficulties. About 7 years ago I visited Cow Bay, north of Cairns, Austra…

Can't the same be said for local nuclear?

Local nuclear is not going to happen in the lifetime of anyone who remembers Chernobyl's fallout across half of western Europe.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#138

"Solar energy prices hit a new record low in January with the auction of 420 megawatts in Rajasthan at 4.34 rupees a kilowatt-hour. In comparison coal tariffs range between 3-5 rupees/kWh." So the headline here is, as is usually the case with articles in this space, misleading at best. It's slightly cheaper than the highest-end coal, but dramatically more expensive - nearly 1.5X more - than the lower end. Overall, it…

Given how much electricity is burned in hot countries for airconditioning, electricity that works during the day is no bad thing.
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