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Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

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Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#71

Post by aaimnr »

levemi wrote: post #23

Whatever the realities of the cost of solar, I tend to worry about a future in which we cover vast swaths of areas with solar panels and the impact such a thing will have on the environment. I don't know if anyone has done good studies on it. A bunch other sustainable forms of energy have environmental problems. Wind generators cause harm to birds, geothermal electricity sources like in Hawai'i raise the temperature…

Have a look at this picture - it shows the total area needed to be covered by solar to power the whole world. With efficient energy transmission technology the area is negligilbe.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/10/07/17/2D2AF4010000057...

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#72

Post by ju-st »

levemi wrote: post #51
drjesusphd wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those problems you cited all pale in comparison to global warming. It's a disingenuous comparison.

These problems pale in comparison partly because these sustainable forms of technology aren't being used any meaningful scale yet. How much area do we have to cover with solar panels to power a largish metropolitan area?

Rooftop solar could generate 38% of the US electrical energy. http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/65298.pdf

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#73

Post by stevetrewick »

Only if it includes the price of all the overcapacity and storage required to produce baseload and still comes in lower can solar be considered to cheaper than coal (or more usefully whatever fossil/nuclear mix is actually currently providing that).

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#74

Post by pjc50 »

m_mueller wrote: post #66
davedx wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> India can develop its solar energy sector by itself. Until the US sues them and the WTO rules against them. http://in.reuters.com/article/usa-india-solar-idINKCN0QV2FD2...

can someone explain to me how EU/US can heavy handedly protect their own agriculture and not violate the same rules? How is energy infrastructure not part of the same exemptions (assuming that those exist)?

The EU/US make the rules.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#75

Post by tomp »

noisy_boy wrote: post #17
murukesh_s wrote: post #8

“I sincerely believe that what the West is doing in this respect is anti-development and anti the fight against climate change,” he said, accusing rich countries of charging too much for clean technology." I really don't believe any country is sincere towards climate change. Every country puts their economy before others. So expecting another economy to help you is a foolish assumption.

You are correct that every country puts their economy before others. However, India is not asking another economy to help them. India can develop its solar energy sector by itself. The west accuses the developing countries to be big polluters since they use less environmentally-friendly means of energy production. Then when countries like India try to subsidize the domestic solar energy market, WTO accuses them of il…

> Then when countries like India try to subsidize the domestic solar energy market, WTO accuses them of illegally supporting domestic over international solar producers.

Doesn't EU do the same (i.e. tax Chinese solar panels to support local producers)?!

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#76

Post by pjc50 »

TheLogothete wrote: post #16

So his quote is "I think a new coal plant would give you costlier power than a solar plant" He thinks a NEW plant would give you costlier energy. Secondly, aren't the solar projects subsidized in a BIG way? I have seen many smart people say that solar is a sham. They say it's just an opportunist's play. Entrepreneurs want to get on the government's tit and the politicians are happy to portray themselves as environmen…

I don't think India subsidises solar power.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#77

Post by __Joker »

masklinn wrote: post #64
__Joker wrote: post #62

Interesting times for the energy economics and geopolitics. If people believe that solar(renewable energy) is getting cheaper, the prices of the oil is drop faster. And you don't want to keep holding to oil when the music stops. I would argue this trend is showing off. The oil producing countries pumping out their oil, because they don't see value reducing the capacity, while the oil prices are historically low.

> And you don't want to keep holding to oil when the music stops. Or you want to be the only one holding to accessible oil, and pretty much sole provider of oil for plastics and other non-fuel petrochemical products.

Yes. Still OPEC cartel doesn't seems to be working, neither does any kind monopoly. Given the wide and often conflicting interest between the oil producers I like to view this as less probable outcome.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#78

Post by WalterBright »

levemi wrote: post #23

Whatever the realities of the cost of solar, I tend to worry about a future in which we cover vast swaths of areas with solar panels and the impact such a thing will have on the environment. I don't know if anyone has done good studies on it. A bunch other sustainable forms of energy have environmental problems. Wind generators cause harm to birds, geothermal electricity sources like in Hawai'i raise the temperature…

> Wind generators cause harm to birds

Domestic cats kill 1.3 .. 4.0 billion birds a year just in the US:

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billi...

Even the high estimates for bird kills by windmills are 2 to 3 orders of magnitude lower:

http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/new/us-windfarms-kill-...

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#79

Post by netcan »

kristopolous wrote: post #2

This is called Swanson's law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swanson%27s_law "The future is solar" isn't some hippy fantasy, it's a sincere market projection. Apparently, a robust, distributed, decentralized, sustainable power grid is unbelievably the actual long-term direction of free-market forces.

There is some other interesting economics at play. Solar is more suitable for local, small scale production for a few reasons including relative costs and the way those costs are distributed (capital cost vs variable cost).

That in itself is interesting for all sorts of reasons, many of them applying to countries like India with infrastructure difficulties.

About 7 years ago I visited Cow Bay, north of Cairns, Australia and past the end of the grid (it ends at the Daintree river, I think). All the B&Bs, houses, hotels and such were running on Diesel generators. Smelly, noisy... People turn them off at night. I wonder if solar has replaced much of this yet.

If local solar reduces the need for power infrastructure in areas where marginal costs are highest, I wonder if the economics of grids changes in some sort of useful way generally. Maybe the cost savings in marginal infrastructure reduce overall costs meaningfully. If governments (or the quasi independent private energy players) are too broke or disfunctional to provide good central power, there's an alternative. When telcom infrastructure was simplified by mobile, that had a big impact in places that never had wired infrastructure in the first place but got mobile phones.

Re: Solar is now cheaper than some coal, says India energy minister

#80

Post by megablast »

nickysielicki wrote: post #43
TheLogothete wrote: post #16

So his quote is "I think a new coal plant would give you costlier power than a solar plant" He thinks a NEW plant would give you costlier energy. Secondly, aren't the solar projects subsidized in a BIG way? I have seen many smart people say that solar is a sham. They say it's just an opportunist's play. Entrepreneurs want to get on the government's tit and the politicians are happy to portray themselves as environmen…

> federal subsidies have provided wind and solar developers with as much as $24 billion from 2008 to 2014, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance. -- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-05/say-goodby... Absolutely ridiculous. Can you imagine if we spent $4BN annually on nuclear energy and public outreach on how it isn't dangerous? Yet another case where leftists would rather feel good than do good.

We did. We do.
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