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Europe nearing Google antitrust charges

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Re: Europe nearing Google antitrust charges

#21

Post by [deleted] »

fabulist wrote: post #14
personjerry wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judges may think of their families, communities, and countries; in something of this scale it would be hard to be impartial.

How much of an effect would $6B really have on the EU? According to Wikipedia[0], their GDP is around $16,800 billion. If I were the judge I wouldn't see any reason to believe my community would derive any measurably benefit from that income. If a politician came to them and said, "we're going to use that $6B to fund this particular program," well sure, but that would seem to be a subset of bribery. [0] https://en.wi…

[deleted]

Re: Europe nearing Google antitrust charges

#22

Post by ksdale »

To add a little context based on an antitrust course taken in a U.S. law school a few years ago, European antitrust law is quite different from American antitrust law so American ideas about market share and consumer choice may not be applicable.

In the U.S. the primary focus of antitrust enforcement is on the consumer, so if the consumer is getting a solid product for "free" and has lots of other options, there is no chance of an antitrust action happening.

From what I remember, European antitrust enforcement also takes the well-being of competitors into account, so if one company has a large market share and enough pricing power to make it difficult for competitors to survive, the authorities may bring legal action, based on the theory that it's better for society to have more different businesses offering choice and employing people.

Re: Europe nearing Google antitrust charges

#23

Post by thaumasiotes »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #20
hartpuff wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you seriously believe in such endemic corruption, you could equally fantasise that Google has enough money to buy a not-guilty verdict, yet the EU will remain impartial?

In fact, in the US, Google HAS bought a non-guilty verdict. The US counterpart of Ms. Vestager is the commissioner of the FTC. For two years, that person was a paid Google spokesperson, and the case against Google that had been building here in the US was found by their staff to have merit, yet quietly buried. As soon as their paid shill stepped down last year, the investigation was reopened. (Sources can be provided…

This is interesting information and worth bringing up. However, there are some important legal differences between a decision not to prosecute and a verdict in court.

For example, if Google had actually received a "not guilty" verdict on this issue, it wouldn't have been possible to reopen the investigation at all.

Re: Europe nearing Google antitrust charges

#24

Post by ocdtrekkie »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #23
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, in the US, Google HAS bought a non-guilty verdict. The US counterpart of Ms. Vestager is the commissioner of the FTC. For two years, that person was a paid Google spokesperson, and the case against Google that had been building here in the US was found by their staff to have merit, yet quietly buried. As soon as their paid shill stepped down last year, the investigation was reopened. (Sources can be provided…

This is interesting information and worth bringing up. However, there are some important legal differences between a decision not to prosecute and a verdict in court. For example, if Google had actually received a "not guilty" verdict on this issue, it wouldn't have been possible to reopen the investigation at all.

Yes, that's true.

Re: Europe nearing Google antitrust charges

#25

Post by mgnacl »

personjerry wrote: post #12
fabulist wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The judges shouldn't be seeing a penny more or less no matter the verdict. If they're bribed that is another matter.

Judges may think of their families, communities, and countries; in something of this scale it would be hard to be impartial.

Judges may think of their families, communities, and countries; in something of this scale it would be hard to be impartial.

Compared to the combined national budgets of the EU member states the fine amount would be a rounding error.

Re: Europe nearing Google antitrust charges

#26

Post by ocdtrekkie »

ksdale wrote: post #22

To add a little context based on an antitrust course taken in a U.S. law school a few years ago, European antitrust law is quite different from American antitrust law so American ideas about market share and consumer choice may not be applicable. In the U.S. the primary focus of antitrust enforcement is on the consumer, so if the consumer is getting a solid product for "free" and has lots of other options, there is n…

I don't think this is actually all that different. Both jurisdictions recognize that competition is preferable. Minor differences in why they focus on that, is probably not all that relevant. Making it impossible for competitors to function in the US is problematic as well, because it leads to a lack of consumer choice. (Just because Google is free, doesn't mean all of us want it.)

Furthermore, the EU has demonstrated overall a stronger focus, I think, on the individual over corporate interests. Seen also in their handling of privacy, where they're willing to place large burdens on corporations in order to adequately protect their citizens' fundamental rights.

Re: Europe nearing Google antitrust charges

#27

Post by glenndebacker »

levemi wrote: post #2

I don't understand why Google gets attacked when at least you can install competing services and you can't on iOS. Why does iOS get a pass? If Google built the hardware itself it could lock it down all it wants? That's the reason? You can get Firefox on Android and not on iOS. You can replace almost anything, and on iOS you can't. You can disable many of the default apps on Android, I don't know if you can on iOS.

It is quite simple really, Apple has in no way the market share that a Google has. The impact of their anti-competitive decisions are vairy low.

The problem is also not having big marketshare but having it AND doing things that may be anti-competitive. European companies have also brought before court for the same reasons.

Btw Apple had also been brought to court for not applying European laws especially regarding warranty's which they lost.

Re: Europe nearing Google antitrust charges

#28

Post by kitd »

EGreg wrote: post #11
fabulist wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The judges shouldn't be seeing a penny more or less no matter the verdict. If they're bribed that is another matter.

But don't the judges work for the EU?

"EU" is a broad term. The legislature is a different branch to the executive ie the European Commission. Most here in the UK get it wrong too.

Re: Europe nearing Google antitrust charges

#29

Post by bad_user »

glenndebacker wrote: post #27
levemi wrote: post #2

I don't understand why Google gets attacked when at least you can install competing services and you can't on iOS. Why does iOS get a pass? If Google built the hardware itself it could lock it down all it wants? That's the reason? You can get Firefox on Android and not on iOS. You can replace almost anything, and on iOS you can't. You can disable many of the default apps on Android, I don't know if you can on iOS.

It is quite simple really, Apple has in no way the market share that a Google has. The impact of their anti-competitive decisions are vairy low. The problem is also not having big marketshare but having it AND doing things that may be anti-competitive. European companies have also brought before court for the same reasons. Btw Apple had also been brought to court for not applying European laws especially regarding wa…

You're trying to make some sense of this, but no, there is no sense and it isn't simple either.

For one because Google's Android does not qualify as a monopoly and the mere existence of Apple's iOS which has 20% of the European market is testament to that. But also because having a monopoly isn't illegal and I'm quite curious what anti-trust charges they are going to bring, because as the parent says, Android has been the most flexible mainstream mobile OS, more than iOS or Windows Phone. Android is the only one on top of which Firefox was possible, the only one admitting third-party installation sources and app stores and the only one that can have a CyanogenMod. Android is actually the only one that can be forked and Amazon has successfully forked Android.

And the reason for why it doesn't make sense is because Google charges no licence money for Android and they've been quite forthcoming about the reason why Android exists, right from the start, its existence being all about Google having a mobile platform to distribute their apps and services. Phone makers don't even have to agree to this, though no Google agreement means no Google Play, terms that again, have been there from the start. And in fact Apple and Microsoft have both used their existing position in desktop operating systems, an easily provable oligarchy, to push their mobile OSs and lock users in.

> European companies have also brought before court for the same reasons

Oh, come on, you know that ain't true. They are targeting Google specifically because they don't want to share their Search & News revenue with a dying mass-media industry. And I'm saying this as an European.

Re: Europe nearing Google antitrust charges

#30

Post by bad_user »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #19
levemi wrote: post #2

I don't understand why Google gets attacked when at least you can install competing services and you can't on iOS. Why does iOS get a pass? If Google built the hardware itself it could lock it down all it wants? That's the reason? You can get Firefox on Android and not on iOS. You can replace almost anything, and on iOS you can't. You can disable many of the default apps on Android, I don't know if you can on iOS.

A few of the responses to your comments have covered a lot, but they miss the primary issue: Apple only controls itself. Through the Android MADA, a confidential contract Google forces OEMs to sign in exchange for the Play Store, Google basically de facto controls the majority of the mobile industry. Google has full veto power over all of their Android-based device and software releases. Google has a ridiculous amoun…

The existence of Android, a platform for Google to push their apps and services, has been clear from the start, along with the terms by which a phone maker is able to distribute Google Play.

> Google has a ridiculous amount of power, and if they say jump, everyone in the industry has to ask how high

That's not an anti-trust violation. I hope they come up with something much better than that.

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