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For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

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Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#321

Post by drunken-serval »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #265
vkou wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the circumstances, asking someone out for a coffee is one thing. Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment.

> Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment. Yet this behavior is romanticised is popular culture, and has been from the dawn of time up to and including the present: Oddyseus and Helen of Troy, Shakespeare's "The taming of the shrew", tons of Fred Astaire movies, as well as modern movies like "Ghost", "Life is beautiful", "Chasing Amy", TV shows like "Sex and the city"... I could go on. Lucikly I don't n…

Thank you for not linking to TV Tropes. I've lost a great many hours to that site. :)

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#322

Post by ksenzee »

zkhalique wrote: post #140
goodcanadian wrote: post #96

I must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of behaviour. Of course, I am male. There are, however, plenty of assholes in the world including in academia, and I have noticed that universities tend not to want to rock the boat, so I suppose that it is not entirely surprising that these things are occurring.…

I wonder where I can read about frank male experiences in a female-dominated field, such as nursing, or teaching elementary school.

My husband has spent most of his career as an association executive, which means he's often the only man in a room full of women colleagues. He's had some eye-rolling experiences. We keep thinking we should start a joint blog.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#323

Post by scott_s »

qb45 wrote: post #289
scott_s wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that paragraph is under the title "Sexual Harassment". It is clear to me that when they say "harassment", they mean "sexual harassment". Otherwise, the sentence would not be under that title. You're free to disagree, but your disagreement has no bearing on the laws we operate under. (Assuming you are in the US.)

The exact paragraph you quoted from section on "sexual harassment" is copy-pasted from section on "sex-based discrimination". And it's not law, but some guidance/advice/faq/whatever. You are overinterpreting this thing.

I think I am interpreting this thing in a straight-forward manner. This is the part of the government responsible for ensuring equal employment opportunities telling the public that it does not limit "sexual harassment" to harassment of a sexual nature.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#324

Post by goodcanadian »

scott_s wrote: post #129
goodcanadian wrote: post #96

I must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of behaviour. Of course, I am male. There are, however, plenty of assholes in the world including in academia, and I have noticed that universities tend not to want to rock the boat, so I suppose that it is not entirely surprising that these things are occurring.…

Based on your description, it sounds like your wife has experienced a decent amount of harassment. (I include that extreme bullying in it.) When a number of individual assholes are allowed to continue being assholes, and you need to have a "look out for yourself attitude", that is a systemic problem. I'm genuinely curious what your wife's take is - she may see it a little differently from you.

I'm genuinely curious what your wife's take is - she may see it a little differently from you.

So, I just had lunch with my wife, and she pretty much agrees with my take. She views her main problem as the act of a single, albeit misogynist, individual, and not a symptom of a systemic problem. Moreover, she expressed surprise (like myself) at the suggestion that astronomy is full of sexual harassment. She can't imagine my colleagues or former colleagues being like that. That is not to say that problems we can't see don't exist, of course.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#325

Post by nogbit »

bittercynic wrote: post #311
backpocket wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in our pursuit of equality, men are now between a rock and a hard place: treat women equally, but not too equally; treat them differently, but not too differently - or you will be discriminating. "Please discriminate: just very, very carefully and very, very skillfully."

In my experience (as a man) all you have to do is treat people with respect and you'll be fine. There are occasionally times when I enter a room where a woman was alone and I can see that my mere presence is making her very uncomfortable and she feels that she can't say/do anything. At those times I quickly excuse myself with a quick "Hello, goodbye" or something. This really doesn't seem like such a tricky issue if…

Respect...exactly right!

I've never had a problem and the respect is reciprocated for 20 years now in my career. I've never had to excuse myself either, if it's only 2 people in the room just start a damm conversation. Talking is really easier than you think.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#326

Post by ElComradio »

Steuard wrote: post #225
ElComradio wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was your friends who worked out, would you feel happy for them or scold them for setting a bad example for everyone else?

I agree that once it has worked out for folks, it's hard to say, "You shouldn't have done that." But aren't there still costs? Everyone else in the company now gets to wonder whether the lower-ranking person's raises and promotions are due to merit or just because they're in a relationship with the boss. Beyond that, the bigger issue to my eye is that it doesn't always work out. If your boss flirts with you and you a…

All of these scenarios are possible but often they are presented as a certainty. This speaks more towards fears and feelings; I'd be interested to see studies that claim most office romances turn out badly.

People are being trained to make these leaps even if there are no facts to back them up. You might _feel_ your boss is treating you differently because she asked you out, but should we all adjust behavior to accommodate _potential_ negative impressions in a lowest-common-denominator kind of way (You seem to agree that we should not...)? These discussions tend to assume the absolute worst outcome regardless of incidence.

Some quick googling suggests 30% of office romances lead to marriage. Even if that stat is wildly inaccurate, it still feels bizarre to tell so many people they should have taken one for the team (not had a relationship).

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#327

Post by FilterSweep »

drunken-serval wrote: post #317
bittercynic wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience (as a man) all you have to do is treat people with respect and you'll be fine. There are occasionally times when I enter a room where a woman was alone and I can see that my mere presence is making her very uncomfortable and she feels that she can't say/do anything. At those times I quickly excuse myself with a quick "Hello, goodbye" or something. This really doesn't seem like such a tricky issue if…

This assumes you have the social skills and awareness of your surroundings to notice when you've made someone uncomfortable. I'll often go to the break room with headphones on and make tea while I puzzle through some code I had been working on. I'm barely aware there are other people in the room.

> I'll often go to the break room with headphones on and make tea while I puzzle through some code I had been working on.

It's sometimes in those moments when you come across a solution you wouldn't have thought of at your desk. YMMV though.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#328

Post by reitanqild »

drunken-serval wrote: post #317
bittercynic wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience (as a man) all you have to do is treat people with respect and you'll be fine. There are occasionally times when I enter a room where a woman was alone and I can see that my mere presence is making her very uncomfortable and she feels that she can't say/do anything. At those times I quickly excuse myself with a quick "Hello, goodbye" or something. This really doesn't seem like such a tricky issue if…

This assumes you have the social skills and awareness of your surroundings to notice when you've made someone uncomfortable. I'll often go to the break room with headphones on and make tea while I puzzle through some code I had been working on. I'm barely aware there are other people in the room.

> This assumes you have the social skills and awareness of your surroundings to notice when you've made someone uncomfortable.

Spot on. I rarely recognize I made people uncomfortable but reading all these discussions I guess I do :-/

OTOH, I try to be nice to everyone, -that way I should (theoretically) have less to worry about.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#329

Post by grahamburger »

bittercynic wrote: post #305
labster wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ignore all women socially at work, you're going to end up discriminating against women. People have a strong tendency to select for what they already know. If you have a hiring choice between a theoretically equal woman and an equal man, you'll probably want to select the man because you'd feel safe to interact with him socially. You won't because it's Wrong, but what about all of the little decisions you don'…

I think it is pretty safe for a man to socialize with men and women at work, but you have to recognize signals that a person doesn't want to talk to you and find a gracious way to deal with that. If an adult is unable to recognize those basic signals, what training options are available to get up-to-speed?

I think that every person that I regularly interact with socially I have both offended and been offended by in some way. I suspect that that's just part of normal human interaction. But it seems like any offense from a man to a woman can be considered sexual harassment, which I would say makes those interactions dangerous.

Also note that I wouldn't blame women for this issue. It's really the fault of (mostly) men who are aggressively and shamelessly harassing women and putting everyone on edge.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#330

Post by ElComradio »

poof131 wrote: post #223
ElComradio wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet something like 30% of office workers have had office romances. Are you going to tell all of those people they should not have flirted?

Office romances are fine. Even in the military, relationships between coworkers are accepted. It’s part of life. What’s not accepted is hitting on or dating your subordinates. One, it’s inappropriate since the subordinate may feel forced to comply with the advances for the sake of his or her career. And two, even when it works out and isn’t harassment, team dynamics are about to go into the toilet. Who gets the next…

We are in a bad way when one's subjective "feelings" determine the order of the day. There is a POSSIBILITY that one might FEEL they owe something (regardless of the reality)... So therefore, we need to guard against what may very well be an outlier case by restricting what the majority of people who do not have these feelings can do.
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