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For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

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Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#141
post #119
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the sort of thinking that leads to people calling 911 for disputes relating to McNuggets. Calling in armed mediators is not likely to improve your situation.

It's the sort of thinking that gets abusive people who commit crimes public criminal records (or at least records of a series of accusations) instead of slaps on the wrist which forever remain private so they can continue their abuse. The other alternative, calling in University-owned mediators who have no incentive to help you and every incentive to "just make it go away" will almost certainly not improve your situa…

Sexual harassment in the US is usually a civil matter. You don't call the police because it's not a crime in and of itself, so they can't do anything about it.

Sexual harassment can include crimes like sexual assault and stalking, so in those cases you should definitely call the police.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexual harassment is harassment. I don't mean to sound trite, but it's literally true. Politely asking a peer out on a date, ONCE, is not harassment. Even though it might be a little uncomfortable in the moment, that can pass if everyone acts professionally regardless of the outcome. Examples of harassment include: - asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no" - propositioning someone fo…

- asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no" There's some kind of weird disconnect in our society here. I've been in the position where I've asked a colleague out to a movie, but she gave a plausible sounding excuse each time. I stopped asking when she finally definitely said "no," but she did so with language that made me feel like she thought me a rapist. No means no, but white lies s…

If she really wanted to see the movie with you, but she actually had to take her dog to the dentist, she would have counter-offered a time and date.

She was trying to brush you off, hoping you'd take the hint, without appearing confrontational. It obviously didn't work. You continued with the unwanted advances, and it made her uncomfortable.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#143

In the present day and age, where PhD supervisors are given massive amounts of power over their graduate students, such incidents are all too commonplace. Put more institutional safeguards on the process of awarding doctoral degrees to protect both sides of the inequality.

I wonder, and this me genuinely wondering without an assumed answer, if some of the issues we're seeing with gender inequality in 'traditionally male dominated' lines of study and work might be due to the type of people drawn to those fields.

I'm not going all men's rights or saying anything is acceptable but if you took a (painfully?) stereotypical set of physicists, technologists, etc. they would probably be male, on the autism spectrum/socially awkward in general, and likely have spent the majority of their time around the same types of people (smart, socially awkward men/boys). Could part of it be from social cues they may not have learned along the way since they likely spent a good portion of their time out of the 'normal' stream of socialization?

Another thought, and anecdotally, I played multiple sports in high school and aspired to play college football. When I walked into a CS or advanced physics class in high school and college I was the something is not like the rest; sauntering in at 6'4", in a cutoff t-shirt and sweats having just come from practice or lifting weights. There were multiple times where when I screwed up I was called a dumb jock, or something like that. If I was instead a woman, might they have just called me a dumb girl? Now they are being misogynistic for sure, but couldn't you attribute it to the fact that they pick out the difference between you and them and attack on that? Isn't that what most groups do in a "you don't belong, you're not our kind" kind of mentality? I shook most of it off pretty casually because I could look into myself and a) be sure I was just as good, if not better than the majority of 'them', and b) I knew I could physically destroy them and it made 17-22 year old me smile inside.

As a Type A, incredibly outgoing and social individual, I've been reminded many times of how annoying I get to a lot of the people who studied with me and work with me because they are very typically not. Growing up with one foot in nerd life and another in jock life (taking the non-pejorative easy to describe route with nerd and jock) it was very clear the group social difference between both sides of my friends. I, frankly, had a much easier time fitting in with the sports oriented/popular crowd and felt almost, hesitant, maybe, in larger groups in my CS/Physics studies. It was a weird, unnerving feeling for someone who spent most of his life dropping into social situations and just rolling with it. It was almost as if I was communicating at a _just_ different enough baud rate that we could work together, but it was taxing for a long time.

I could imagine if I was a woman who maybe couldn't draw on their physical dominance to provide a sense of safety, how much more stressful those years would have been.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Objectification doesn't really apply to a still image. The whole trope was initially about women in media being the object of the male character's conquest. Essentially the women were turned into nothing more than props. A t-shirt depicting scantily clad women may be in poor taste and likely isn't professional, but doesn't really contribute to the objectification of women. Women are allowed to be sexualised (just as…

The view that you, as an individual, bring to the world, is exactly what makes the world the way it is. That's why a shirt is a reflection of a reality. Now it is a shirt, tomorrow it is a perfume advertising image. The next day it is a man who thinks that the woman he is married to is his belonging.

That's actually the view academics such as philosopher Martha Nussbaum bring to the world.

See their definition of objectification here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions

As you can see, doesn't apply. A static t-shirt image of any sort is always an object but never objectification, because it lacks the context it would need to be more.

Objectification was never about naked Vs. clothed. It was about how women are treated and viewed as individuals. It is about autonomy and being more than a 2D prop for male character's use.

You can be naked and still have a great deal of personality, story importance, and be respected by both male characters within the medium and the writers. See Game of Thrones. There is an absolute ton of nudity in that, and yes, there is objectification (e.g. background sex) but the show gets a pass because female leads are given a great deal of importance, autonomy, and respect. They're nobody's props or objects.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#145
post #50

Ask Women: What counts as sexual harassment? Is it "Let's go out this weekend?" or is it a comment about body parts below the neck, or is it physical?

Why not ask a lawyer instead?

Today I want to know what women think (and maybe sympathize), not the law.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#146
post #92

I never knew BuzzFeed wrote exclusive longform (and interesting) content. Thanks for mentioning it.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/bigstories is the best place to find their longform stuff without having to wade through the quizzes and clickbait.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snark aside, I just wonder why I don't know any men like that in my personal life. The problem seems quite widespread after all.

I think the problem is often that we do, we're just not cognizant of it. A lot of sexism is so normalized that the edges of more destructive behavior (jokes and the like) never signal to other men that someone is abusive or demeaning to women. I've had to learn be conscious my self of not indulging casual manifestations of these attitudes, in the same way that "casual" racism is no longer socially permissible.

"Casual" racism and other forms of regressive bigotry are still quite permissible. In the Bay Area, there are people who think it's okay to ascribe an inherent inferiority to someone stemming from age, race, cultural background, religion, or even to what hat they wear. This is done both in the name of fighting political correctness and in the name of "social justice."

It's even considered the height of sophistication of many here to jump to conclusions about your politics and morality based on subcultural markers. I find this shockingly anti-intellectual and the whole atmosphere disingenuously hateful on both sides.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#148
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no" There's some kind of weird disconnect in our society here. I've been in the position where I've asked a colleague out to a movie, but she gave a plausible sounding excuse each time. I stopped asking when she finally definitely said "no," but she did so with language that made me feel like she thought me a rapist. No means no, but white lies s…

If she really wanted to see the movie with you, but she actually had to take her dog to the dentist, she would have counter-offered a time and date. She was trying to brush you off, hoping you'd take the hint, without appearing confrontational. It obviously didn't work. You continued with the unwanted advances, and it made her uncomfortable.

This is the unintended consequence of a lifetime of hearing that men are dangerous and might kill you. Threats are everywhere, says the media, constantly.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#149

I must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of behaviour. Of course, I am male. There are, however, plenty of assholes in the world including in academia, and I have noticed that universities tend not to want to rock the boat, so I suppose that it is not entirely surprising that these things are occurring.…

Based on your description, it sounds like your wife has experienced a decent amount of harassment. (I include that extreme bullying in it.) When a number of individual assholes are allowed to continue being assholes, and you need to have a "look out for yourself attitude", that is a systemic problem. I'm genuinely curious what your wife's take is - she may see it a little differently from you.

I said she hadn't experienced sexual harassment. You are correct that the bullying constituted harassment. I was not trying to say that it doesn't exist; I was just trying to offer my thoughts on the article. The title says, "For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare." I have worked in Astronomy my entire career, but I have not seen it at all (perhaps, because I am male). My wife works in a different STEM field, and while she has experienced harassment, possibly due to her gender, it was not sexual harassment. For the record, I believe the stories in the article, and I am very saddened by them.
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