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When Lobbying was Illegal

priceonomics.com

141–150 of 165 posts

Re: When Lobbying was Illegal

#141
post #74
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DW (sorry, this is still long, the video is an hour!): Something happened in the 1970s which caused a major shift in a number of indicators in the US, leading to a general decline and increase in corruption in Congress. Lots of media kinds of sees this trend happening, but none of them have found a cause. The author was in Africa, thinking about how E-voting could help to reduce the costs of voting. Which sounds g…

Sorry if this is naive, but: Don't we want intimidation/vote buying of members of congress, in a sense? As a voter, it's important to be able to verify that the people I voted for actually represented my interests, rather than just paying lip service in the campaign. A citizen at the polls has no constituency. Doesn't seem to me like there's an easy answer, although I'm open to the idea that closed votes are the less…

> As a voter, it's important to be able to verify that the people I voted for actually represented my interests, rather than just paying lip service in the campaign.

I think this vastly overestimates the degree to which voters actually look at how representatives voted rather than what they say on television. The only people actually looking at votes are lobbyists and party leaders.

The whole idea of representative democracy rather than direct democracy is that you elect people you trust to represent your interests. If you don't trust them then vote them out, because individual voters clearly don't have time to micromanage untrustworthy members of Congress.

The actual votes are all choreographed anyway. Everybody knows ahead of time whether or not a bill is going to pass and by exactly how many votes. Which means every bill that passes or fails with a margin of more than one vote (which is almost all of them) would have allowed anyone to change their vote from the one they preferred to the one their constituents or donors would have preferred without changing the outcome, and party leaders generally only care about the outcome. And if it would have changed the outcome then that means the vote was close and it shouldn't be hard to find someone on the other side that you can trade votes with so that you can both vote the way your respective constituencies want to see you vote even though you each effectively voted the other way.

The only thing revealing the votes does is allow the exact thing we wanted to prevent, i.e. it allows a representative to be rewarded or punished for voting a certain way but only by the people who know enough to distinguish when the vote is only for show and when it really changed the outcome.

Re: When Lobbying was Illegal

#142
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to actually increase the number of politicians so that each district is small enough that you don't need money to get elected (you need districts of about 25,000 voters). The crazy thing is it doesn't even cost anymore money because as you increase the politicians you take away their staff. If you want to know more about this idea see [1]. 1. http://www.thirty-thousand.org

Ireland works this way; there are about 25k voters per representative. What happens is clientilism: representatives become very concerned with local issues and neglect national issues. Corruption of a different, more local kind, is encouraged.

That's how democracy is meant to work.

Re: When Lobbying was Illegal

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to actually increase the number of politicians so that each district is small enough that you don't need money to get elected (you need districts of about 25,000 voters). The crazy thing is it doesn't even cost anymore money because as you increase the politicians you take away their staff. If you want to know more about this idea see [1]. 1. http://www.thirty-thousand.org

increase the politicians you take away their staff Respectfully disagree. It's not that easy. Legislating is an information processing problem. The politics of attention. All the legislators I know can barely keep up with the torrent of information. Overwhelming them with info and votes and meetings prevents them from taking initiative. They need more staff. All games have winners and losers. Weakening legislators --…

The problems you describe are the complexities resulting from overworked representatives and complex societies. The proposal to increase the number of representatives does not directly change this (it should help by having a wider pool of individuals to draw on when composing committees), but about getting the need for money out of the system. This is the core cause of corruption.

Re: When Lobbying was Illegal

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you make the connection between the representatives and the votes more personal you will increase the likelihood of voting. As a voter you are not voting for someone you don't know, but for "good old joe" who you speak to every couple of months. The idea is to not solve every problem with democracy, but to remove the corrupting influence of needing to raise money from vested interests to spend on advertising so…

The number one driver for voting participation is competitive races. Hence the need for redistricting which maximizes competitiveness. Unlike every other modern democracy, the US has opt-in voting. To the best of my knowledge, universal voting registration does not increase participation. But it does prevent disenfranchisement. Only compulsory voting would (otherwise) increase participation. Some of our jurisdictions…

I agree with you that postal voting is very harmful practice to democracy. The solution to people not having time to get off work to vote is not postal voting, but to move the date to a weekend or holiday.

Re: When Lobbying was Illegal

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble with the Australian 'VAP' number is Australia has a very large percentage on non-citizens. It seems from the data that they have divided the votes by the total population rather than the number of Australian citizens.

Good eye. Noting that VAP is appropriate for international comparisons. Domestically, it also informs policy, like enfranchisement thru citizenship. Radicals like me believe no taxation without representation. I support enfranchising pretty much everyone, especially for local issues.

It is very easy to become a citizen of Australia once you are a permanent resident - the large number of non-citizens is a personal choice of the people involved.

It is an interesting question if the vote should be extended to non-citizens. I can see good and bad aspects to doing so and I am not sure which is more important.

Re: When Lobbying was Illegal

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be making a common logical fallacy about tactical voting, explained in the graph here. http://www.electology.org/topic/tactical-voting In short, tactical voting isn't all that important. For instance, Score Voting and Approval Voting perform better with 100% strategic voters (in which case they are identical) than IRV does with 100% honest voting. So even if IRV magically encouraged all voters to be hones…

For future discussions: I advocate Approval because it's both "good enough" and easy to administrate, tabulate. Balancing concerns from the election integrity viewpoint.

Agreed.

Re: When Lobbying was Illegal

#147
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not. Lobbyists are breaking federal law if they take a congressman out to a nice dinner. Paying them more wouldn't solve this problem because running an election campaign is so expensive that they spend the majority of their time trying to raise money. They end up taking positions that are friendly to potential donors in the hope that the donors will keep sending them money. The major problem isn't that they…

Right, so what happens instead is the lobbyist donates some money to the campaign, and the campaign takes them out to dinner, where they can talk about future campaign funding. And that's totally legal.

Yeah that happens, but they're trading favors for continued campaign contributions not free dinners, so paying them more money isn't going to fix anything.

Forcing all interactions with lobbyists to be recorded and released might help.

Publicly funded campaigns would also probably solve this problem (but could also cause its own problems).

Re: When Lobbying was Illegal

#148
My solution: publicly funded elections, and pay congress people a lot more so they can't be bought off with a new porch and hot tub, like that Ted Stevens. It would be money well spent. Make them millionaires, maybe some intelligent people would be enticed into public service.

Re: When Lobbying was Illegal

#149
post #15

Perhaps the least understood view of lobbying that really informs how perverse the system has become is that as a general rule people believe the lobbyists are calling the congresspeople to offer them money. In reality, it's the congresspeople, desperate for campaign cash, that are calling the lobbyists for money. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/01/27/145923803/the-f... The cost of congressional elections has…

> it's congresspeople needing money who give special favors in the hopes of maybe getting money

"Special favors" are only given when the public does not speak out or vote. If the public is largely silent on an issue, the politician's perspective is his constituents don't care about that issue.

Barney Frank: "If the voters have a position, the votes will kick money's rear end any time. I've never met a politician-- I've been in the legislative bodies for 40 years now-- who, choosing between a significant opinion in his or her district and a number of campaign contributors, doesn't go with the district." [1]

We need to discuss and debate the issues more with each other. Techies may also help provide better tools for representatives to gauge public interest.

[1] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/461/t...

Re: When Lobbying was Illegal

#150
post #15

Perhaps the least understood view of lobbying that really informs how perverse the system has become is that as a general rule people believe the lobbyists are calling the congresspeople to offer them money. In reality, it's the congresspeople, desperate for campaign cash, that are calling the lobbyists for money. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/01/27/145923803/the-f... The cost of congressional elections has…

Lobbying is still a form of corruption. That congressmen need money to buy votes via advertising does not make it non-corrupt.
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