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Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

startupvisa.com

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Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#181

Post by davemc500hats »

tptacek wrote: post #140
davemc500hats wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the 3 points are an OR, not an AND. you misinterpreted it. altho the legislation as proposed is not final, it was clearly drafted and stated with each of the 3 potential rqmts being sufficient on their own, not together.

It costs less than $100k per year to keep 5 "full-time" workers on staff. Just pay them minimum wage. This seems well-thought-out to you?

so what's your solution? lower the amount?

i think you lose your side of the argument by arguing for any arbitrary amount. i'm happy to argue the merits of what the correct # is, but regardless i think we're just splitting hairs at that point... i've won the discussion.

besides, it's a rather ridiculous amount of hassle in both time & money to raise capital from experienced investors in exchange for hatching some supposedly nefarious scheme to -- wait for it -- hire some low-wage workers.

really, while i fully admit there may be gaming of the system attempted, this supposed workaround is quite a stretch -- it requires the participation of sophisticated investors willing to risk substantial amounts of capital, reputation, effort, and criminal penalty in order to execute.

this doesn't appear to be a rational point worth arguing, you're just being contrarian for the hell of it.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#182

Post by davemc500hats »

tptacek wrote: post #131
boucher wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no restrictions on the kinds of jobs created? In other words, it's acceptable to create 5 minimum wage jobs? I'm not saying that's a problem, but it certainly makes the requirement easier to satisfy. A full time minimum wage job including taxes is just about $20k a year.

Yes, it's acceptable to create 5 minimum wage jobs. In other words, if you are sponsored by an appropriate financier, you can obtain permanent residency for approximately $100,000 per year over 3 years.

again you're missing the point of the investor participation in this equation -- it's unlikely that accredited investors and venture capitalists would risk time, capital, reputation, and criminal penalty to perpetrate such a pointless exercise.

while it's possible, it's not very likely.

we did not draft legislation to cover all possible edge cases, but rather to reasonably address common scenarios.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#183

Post by davemc500hats »

briansmith wrote: post #142
shawndrost wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm baffled. Should this bill pass, visa aspirants will be in a strictly better position. They will have all their old options, plus one. Can you explain how that is worse?

Unused EB-5 visa numbers spill over to EB-1, and EB-1 to EB-2, and EB-2 to EB-3. This bill would eliminate the EB-5 -> EB-1 spillover, which has the effect of reducing the number of EB-2 and EB-3 green cards available per year.

please point out the information that supports your conclusion above. i'm not convinced unused EB-5s contribute to solving for other backlogs.

regardless, it's also not the case that all other backlogged visas are of higher priority than new visas. if there is a zero-sum game to be played, priorities could well be reviewed for all types of visas.

your argument for not approving this legislation seems to revolved solely around the backlog issue. there are other better ways to solve that problem than by simply stonewalling all other visa legislation.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#184

Post by davemc500hats »

tptacek wrote: post #62
odeoncg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. Until that 1$ in revenue is reached, the company still makes revenue and ensures jobs for people, some might have even more than 5 employees.

5 American employees. Maybe they'll move to Singapore when the founder is forced to relocate the company?

please... your arguments are circular.

if the new visa class doesn't exist, these folks won't have jobs anyway. now you're claiming we should be worried their jobs might be taken away?

decide which part of the argument you wish to discuss.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#185

Post by davemc500hats »

alex_c wrote: post #161
winter_blue wrote: post #158

I'm really impressed at how quickly the US government responds to the demands of its citizens. (in this instance, a demand for a startup visa.) US is an example of true democracy. In countries like India, it can take several years to get simple demands of the people into law. Most politicians there are incredibly self-interested and care little about the people. (I'm not saying US politicians are not self-interested,…

I'm very happy about this proposal, and I certainly hope it passes, but the cynical part of me has to note a few things: 1) This hasn't passed yet. Let's see what happens, the US government is a bit deadlocked right now. 2) I'm not convinced this happens very often. Maybe I'm wrong. 3) I can't help but notice that the demand comes from VCs and investors - people who control large sums of money - rather than "citizens…

re: 1&2 -- yep, it hasn't passed yet... which is why we're still working on getting support & attention, and why a group of us is going to DC next month to discuss the issue with elected representatives.

re: 3 -- um, "investors are people too". actually, what you should notice is that the "demand" came from people who were concerned enough to take action, and try and get something to happen.

i can't disagree that it helps to have people on your side who can help with dollars and connections, but the more important point is that people cared enough to spend time & energy to make change.

with a little luck, we might get it all the way across the finish line.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#186

Post by davemc500hats »

tptacek wrote: post #139
davemc500hats wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are obvious rqmts to qualify that require time and effort in addition to capital, and a track record of investment over at least 3 years and 6 previous companies. there are obvious penalties which would be incurred if someone intentionally abused this system. legislation does not prevent all types of abuse, however we have attempted to reasonably make it unlikely that such abuse would not occur without great co…

So, again, requiring a track record of investment over at east 3 years and 6 companies might (for instance) exclude Warren Buffet , and keeping the requirements loose means that virtually anyone can "sponsor" an "entrepreneur" for very little money and get them 3 years residency in the US. This just doesn't seem well thought out.

seriously dude, do you like to argue for no particular reason?

yes, it's likely not all investors will qualify -- not perfect, but it's reasonable to require some domain experience that can be provably audited. and yes, the investors who do qualify will likely not be completely sketchy and/or likely to commit fraud.

we picked a reasonable bar to get over that straddles both a rqmt of experience and some capital without making it so low that people could abuse it.

investing $300,000 in capital in 6 companies over 3 years does NOT seem like "virtually anyone" for "very little money".

your perspective again seems irrational & extreme.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#187

Post by boucher »

davemc500hats wrote: post #182
tptacek wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's acceptable to create 5 minimum wage jobs. In other words, if you are sponsored by an appropriate financier, you can obtain permanent residency for approximately $100,000 per year over 3 years.

again you're missing the point of the investor participation in this equation -- it's unlikely that accredited investors and venture capitalists would risk time, capital, reputation, and criminal penalty to perpetrate such a pointless exercise. while it's possible, it's not very likely. we did not draft legislation to cover all possible edge cases, but rather to reasonably address common scenarios.

completely agree. moreover, even in this edge case, you're still pumping several hundred thousand dollars into the economy.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#188

Post by tptacek »

boucher wrote: post #187
davemc500hats wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

again you're missing the point of the investor participation in this equation -- it's unlikely that accredited investors and venture capitalists would risk time, capital, reputation, and criminal penalty to perpetrate such a pointless exercise. while it's possible, it's not very likely. we did not draft legislation to cover all possible edge cases, but rather to reasonably address common scenarios.

completely agree. moreover, even in this edge case, you're still pumping several hundred thousand dollars into the economy.

That's great. We should let anyone who can create 5 jobs into the country, regardless of whether a clique of financiers will "sponsor" them. We should let them in regardless of whether they wear pants.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#189

Post by tptacek »

davemc500hats wrote: post #186
tptacek wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, again, requiring a track record of investment over at east 3 years and 6 companies might (for instance) exclude Warren Buffet , and keeping the requirements loose means that virtually anyone can "sponsor" an "entrepreneur" for very little money and get them 3 years residency in the US. This just doesn't seem well thought out.

seriously dude, do you like to argue for no particular reason? yes, it's likely not all investors will qualify -- not perfect, but it's reasonable to require some domain experience that can be provably audited. and yes, the investors who do qualify will likely not be completely sketchy and/or likely to commit fraud. we picked a reasonable bar to get over that straddles both a rqmt of experience and some capital witho…

My perspective is that the "investor sponsorship" component of this bill is arbitrary, unfair, and will distort the market. I've been pretty consistent about this point throughout the whole "argument".

If you don't want to continue arguing, stop arguing. I don't care what bar you picked for investors, except for the fact that it seems obvious that it's modelled on the tech investor clique. If you got the investor model perfect, I'd still have a problem with conflating investment with viability or value to the economy.

I don't believe for one millisecond that you will concede anything about this bill, which you clearly passionately support. That doesn't bother me at all, for what it's worth.

Re: Senators Kerry & Lugar Introduce the Startup Visa Act

#190

Post by fnid2 »

dtby wrote: post #159
fnid2 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wealth comes from within the borders of a given country. Government might not be in the business of creating wealth, but it is in the business of controlling who gets to be within its geographical borders. If you look throughout history, it's never really worked out well to allow a rich minority to determine what happens to people and the land. Since time immemorial, a rich few have been abusing the property righ…

Without arguing the points above one way or another: Unless I misread your initial message, you suggested that the government was not "taking" wealth from anyone, but rather it somehow had "surplus" wealth to be distributed. My question is more finely tuned to "where did this 'surplus' wealth come from, if it was not 'taken' from someone at some point?"

You could say it was taken from the native americans. Indigenous people or that it was in the ground, the result of decayed dinosaurs and random locations of minerals and plants and weather.
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