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Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

freakonomics.com

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Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

#21

Post by stephenhuey »

Chronic51 wrote: post #8
Overtonwindow wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you expand on "align incentives" a little more please?

Why would I, a rich person, pay 10% of my income in the US when I can simply claim citizenship of another (business focused) country?

Because if you're still in business, you might still make more money in the U.S. due to other superior resources available here. For example, there might be greater creative output from well-paid workers who receive basic income and profit sharing, and this could lead to better overall returns for business owners. Obviously not all types of businesses would do well, but hopefully the ones that would thrive would be businesses we're more interested in seeing thrive.

Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

#22

Post by mikestew »

Chronic51 wrote: post #8
Overtonwindow wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you expand on "align incentives" a little more please?

Why would I, a rich person, pay 10% of my income in the US when I can simply claim citizenship of another (business focused) country?

Because there's no "simply" about it. Go ahead, mentally walk yourself through how that plays out for the rich person. Please account for all assets and potential tax liabilities. Factor in the means of production for the rich person to stay rich, and what happens when that person is no longer a U. S. citizen. All done? Oh, forgot to tell you, there's a dozen other things you didn't even know about, but the country of your previously-held citizenship will be along shortly to helpfully remind you.

That, and where else are you going to go that is more "business-focused"? Suppose you find such a place; what trade-offs are made to live there?

Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

#23

Post by VincentEvans »

Why wouldn't all standard of living benefits of basic income get eliminated immediately by all relevant costs rising to soak it up?

This happens every single time the poor get any sort of money. In poor neighborhoods the rents cost as much as people are able to pay, no more, no less.

Do you know when most rental deposits are collected? Around the tax return season.

If suddenly the poor had some money to spare - the rents will simply go up. The water bill will go up. Electricity, gas. Etc.. until there's no extra income left. And then the poor will be in exactly the same situation as they are now.

Source: long time resident (and landlord btw) of poor neighborhoods of Philly.

P.S: Government is willing to help poor with mortgages? House prices balloon. Government is helping with education grants - colleges raise tuition. Borderline-broke municipalities with enormous unfunded liabilities are looking for any opportunity to collect back taxes and make up new ones. I can go on.

Why would this be any different? As the history shows it will provide a benefit for only a short amount of time until costs catch up.

P.P.S: I am not an opponent of helping poor, quite the opposite. I just don't know how to go about it in real world.

Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

#24

Post by drzaiusapelord »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #2

Negative. Those with money will fight like hell to keep from giving it up. However if by some chance/miracle a guaranteed income is ever instituted, it will become a political football, as politicians and advocacy groups seek to continuously push it higher and higher. Instead of a money handout, I would rather support money in exchange for public works and service. I don't believe handouts without some kind of exchan…

>stituted, it will become a political football, as politicians and advocacy groups seek to continuously push it higher and higher.

This is pretty much Chicago in a nutshell. You have all these handouts to public sector unions in return for union votes and union support. You have further entitlements given to the poor on the south and west sides for votes. You have all these ugly deals done in exchange for staying in power, and no one cares about actually balancing the books. When push comes to shove, you just raise taxes over and over. In other words it won't just go "higher and higher" it'll just be higher for special interest groups who can deliver votes. If you can't deliver mass votes and aren't part of one of these groups, your income will be low or non-existant as you'll be stuck in the 'worker' group and not in the 'leisure' group.

GMI needs an implementation that works. I suspect there really is none that doesn't quickly just become corrupt patronage. GMI and democracy/elections may not be compatible. It may only work under a totalitarian system and sounds pretty close to the USSR's system at that point. The best case scenario here seems to be automation making the cost of living so low that existing welfare systems will just be more than enough to take care of people. If we can vastly lower the cost of everything, then modest payouts will be enough and we'll be able to retain a capitalist and democratic system.

Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

#26

Post by mrfusion »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #2

Negative. Those with money will fight like hell to keep from giving it up. However if by some chance/miracle a guaranteed income is ever instituted, it will become a political football, as politicians and advocacy groups seek to continuously push it higher and higher. Instead of a money handout, I would rather support money in exchange for public works and service. I don't believe handouts without some kind of exchan…

Social security is basic income for those over 65.

It is a football like you say but no one has dramatically increased it for decades.

Besides the looming shortfall it seems to be run fairly responsibly.

Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

#28

Post by branchless »

VincentEvans wrote: post #23

Why wouldn't all standard of living benefits of basic income get eliminated immediately by all relevant costs rising to soak it up? This happens every single time the poor get any sort of money. In poor neighborhoods the rents cost as much as people are able to pay, no more, no less. Do you know when most rental deposits are collected? Around the tax return season. If suddenly the poor had some money to spare - the r…

spot on. One group are ready: landlords.

People do not understand how prices are set and this is a major barrier to stopping rentier activity.

Rents are set by what the market can bear. I hope we get land value tax and stop the leeches.

Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

#29

Post by dota_fanatic »

Disclaimer: I don't know anything about anything.

Some parents can put 850k in a account for their child when it's born that gets invested, say in the American economy (grows by say 7% over an average, long time period), which compounds until later in life, and when they grow up, they can access it. With good financial responsibility, this child won't have to work a day in their lives and can live off the returns.

Why can't we as a society do this for everyone, but you can never touch the account, only the returns? That is, wealth and a foot in the returns of humanity as a right.

You're born, you get $1mil put in an account that gets invested. When you turn 18, you start getting a monthly check, the return on that investment. You can never touch the account, only get its returns.

Someone tell me why this is a bad idea, worse than guaranteed basic income.

Re: Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income?

#30

Post by arviewer »

VincentEvans wrote: post #23

Why wouldn't all standard of living benefits of basic income get eliminated immediately by all relevant costs rising to soak it up? This happens every single time the poor get any sort of money. In poor neighborhoods the rents cost as much as people are able to pay, no more, no less. Do you know when most rental deposits are collected? Around the tax return season. If suddenly the poor had some money to spare - the r…

According to your view, you cannot change anything ever. Take a look at microcredits. Give women in Africa $50 or $100 to start up their own business. They know exactly what to do, and it really helps. Isn't this something similar?
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