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What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

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Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#151

Post by tamana »

turnip1979 wrote: post #83
Thrymr wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's formal continuing education. I'd like to see the concrete number for software engineers. There is no similar standard for continued training. Sure, software engineers are always learning new things, and many do so intentionally, but my guess is that the average amount of formal continuing education is far less than doctors.

Sorry ... have you seen the quality of continuing ed classes for doctors? Clinic decor 101, computer billing systems 101, sign in your hours at the exit, etc.

More like "Prescriboflex 101" , "Xyloprescribex 101", enjoy the buffet at the baseball game etc

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#152

Post by beeboop »

jazzyk wrote: post #136
beeboop wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60% of federal budget is social security, unemployment, medicare, and health spending. 16% is military. I think the bigger problem is that money spent in healthcare doesn't go nearly as far as it does elsewhere due to bloated healthcare costs.

True, but healthcare and unemployment, etc., as wasteful as they are, still improve my quality of life, while paying for defending rich countries like Japan or Germany, does not.

>defending rich countries like Japan or Germany, does not

I am all for non-interventionist policies, but I am not so sure this is so black-and-white. There is definitely a benefit to protecting our allies and ensuring democratic societies remain as democratic as possible. The amount that it benefits you on a day to day basis is probably impossible to quantify, but there is definitely a benefit at a very high level, economically speaking.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#153

Post by criddell »

tamana wrote: post #146
criddell wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are contract lawsuits. Are there any jurisdictions where a Software Engineer can lose their license?

It's essentially impossible for a lawyer to lose their license.

But they can. They can also have their license suspended.

Software Engineer on the other hand, is just a label that doesn't mean anything. AFAIK, no jurisdictions license Software Engineers. Unlike law, there's no punishment for working as a software engineer (although there are some jurisdictions where the title "Engineer" is regulated).

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#154

Post by criddell »

criddell wrote: post #153
tamana wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's essentially impossible for a lawyer to lose their license.

But they can. They can also have their license suspended. Software Engineer on the other hand, is just a label that doesn't mean anything. AFAIK, no jurisdictions license Software Engineers. Unlike law, there's no punishment for working as a software engineer (although there are some jurisdictions where the title "Engineer" is regulated).

The last sentence should be:

Unlike practicing law, there's no punishment for working as a software engineer without a license.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#155

Post by Grishnakh »

tamana wrote: post #149
Grishnakh wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They exist to keep quacks away No, actually they don't. Chiropractors are still practicing, and in huge numbers, and probably gaining in popularity, and they don't just do chiropractic these days, they also do homeopathy, "supplements", and various other bogus remedies. "Naturopathic" doctors are also a big thing. There's no shortage of quackery in the medical field.

None of those people are MDs!

They're part of the same medical establishment, as far as laypeople are concerned, and they're licensed by the State exactly the same way MDs and DOs are, so they must be equivalent.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#156

Post by cookiecaper »

tamana wrote: post #150
cookiecaper wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a middle ground between 10 weeks of training and 10 years of training plus hundreds of thousands in debt. The AMA and ABA are out of control.

Law is only 7 years training and the first 4 are in any field you choose. And there are opportunities for paid semipro internships every summer.

Medicine is 4 years undergrad (in which an aggressive pre-med curriculum must be completed in order to be considered for admission to med school) + 4 years med school + 1 year residency (9 years), and if you're becoming a specialist, throw 3-5 more years in there for extra classroom time and an extended residency. Also bear in mind that this is just formal schooling; these totals don't include the time needed to prepare for specialized entrance exams like the MCAT. It's excessive.

As for law, most non-US jurisdictions allow attorneys to practice after 5 years of training and the receipt of a LLB degree, whereas the US typically requires the full 7 years and a JD. Just another way the ABA is protecting the American public.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#157

Post by V-2 »

berntb wrote: post #37
V-2 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of software engineers are autodidacts and never graduated in IT. I didn't (I have an MA in politics, obviously irrelevant to my profession). In general unemployment in IT is very low, and there's always a shortage of programmers, so job security is clearly above average. (And government administrations have IT departments, too). It's supply vs. demand, that's all there is to it. I'm not buying any of the above…

>> there's always a shortage of programmers Wow, people really have forgotten the IT-death. :-) There are cycles and bubbles here too. They just might not be in phase with the general economy. (And get off my lawn. :-) )

Yeah, well, "always" is an overstatement. Of course there are ups and downs. But it's a matter of proportions - this profession still has it easy. I can't recall a headline informing about massive layoffs of software devs :)

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#158

Post by logfromblammo »

hiram112 wrote: post #90
GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story I see this kind of Rodney Dangerfield sentiment a lot on HN but it has never made a lick of sense to me (especially the "pretty much working class" variety). And also if software engineers want to get into the "doctors and lawyers" category we need to start doing doctory and lawyery thin…

>if software engineers want to get into the "doctors and lawyers" category we need to start doing doctory and lawyery things like "professional societies with teeth" and "board/bar certifications" and "codes of ethics" (good luck on that last one). Not sure why you're down-voted. You're 100% right. Honestly, I really am flabbergasted by a good 50%-75% of the HN community's responses to organizing. This is probably th…

That 50-75% will come around when they stop getting job offers due mainly to a dearth of pileous vigor--also known as "poor cultural fit" or "hiring discrimination"--rather than insufficient experience with technology X.

Honestly, though, if the torches and pitchforks didn't come out after the news broke about the non-poaching agreement between the CEOs of the major tech companies, I doubt they ever will.

The need for a worker cartel is directly proportional to the relative power a typical employer has over a typical employee. If the only way you can improve your work situation is by changing jobs, you could benefit from a union.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#159

Post by TrickedOut »

michaelmrose wrote: post #134
V-2 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of software engineers are autodidacts and never graduated in IT. I didn't (I have an MA in politics, obviously irrelevant to my profession). In general unemployment in IT is very low, and there's always a shortage of programmers, so job security is clearly above average. (And government administrations have IT departments, too). It's supply vs. demand, that's all there is to it. I'm not buying any of the above…

Why do such salaries need justification other than people are willing to pay them

Because these conversations drive increased immigration quotas and increase of supply to "correct" the overly high salaries.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#160

Post by TrickedOut »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #46
yread wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> downtime -- the amount of time software engneers spend unemployed (due to economic cycle, startup bankruptcy, downsizing, etc.) funny but from my circle of friends I never heard of anyone being unemployed and looking for job for more than a month. I myself had exactly 0 time of looking for a job in 12 years of working. I'm in Europe, though, we're ridiculously underpaid compared to the US I think. Very few people e…

12 years of working means you just missed the dot-com crash of 2000-2002.

True, it also means he's too young to face age discrimination.
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