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You Could Do Almost Anything Part 1

elischiff.com

11–20 of 38 posts

Re: You Could Do Almost Anything Part 1

#11
post #2

> Instead, the logo is noteworthy precisely because it has achieved critical acclaim despite, or more accurately, because of its failure to communicate. That, right there, is a damning indictment of the entire modernist project: communication achieves acclaim because it fails to communicate; art achieves acclaim because it fails to be beautiful; life achieves acclaim because it is sterile. As an aside, I love the dry…

This is a most pertinent debate to introduce Roger Scruton's most excellent & eminently watchable "Why Beauty Matters"[1]

I don't know how much the readership of HN is versed in contemporary American popular culture's obsession with the round rejection of traditional ideas of beauty.

I would go as far as to say that the current leitmotif seems to be 'embrace ugliness & dullness' for the sake of it and little else.

These general themes are found in all aspects of our current culture.

Perversion for the sake of perversion.

Bawdiness for the sake of bawdiness.

Irony for the sake of irony.

One can speculate on why and to what end this obsession with these revolting themes is so commonly found in these self-professed avant-gardes.

[1] Why Beauty Matters (Por que a beleza importa?) Roger Scruton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHw4MMEnmpc

Re: You Could Do Almost Anything Part 1

#12
post #4
post #2

> Instead, the logo is noteworthy precisely because it has achieved critical acclaim despite, or more accurately, because of its failure to communicate. That, right there, is a damning indictment of the entire modernist project: communication achieves acclaim because it fails to communicate; art achieves acclaim because it fails to be beautiful; life achieves acclaim because it is sterile. As an aside, I love the dry…

I think the primary objective of a logo is to be a recognizable symbol for an organization or concept. It's not entirely clear to me that to achieve that objective the logo must fully describe the entity or be some identifiable representation of what that entity does. For example Apple's logo speaks very little to what it does, and to a greater or lesser extent so do many others including Uber (new and old), Xiaomi,…

[deleted]

Re: You Could Do Almost Anything Part 1

#13
post #2

> Instead, the logo is noteworthy precisely because it has achieved critical acclaim despite, or more accurately, because of its failure to communicate. That, right there, is a damning indictment of the entire modernist project: communication achieves acclaim because it fails to communicate; art achieves acclaim because it fails to be beautiful; life achieves acclaim because it is sterile. As an aside, I love the dry…

This is a most pertinent debate to introduce Roger Scruton's most excellent & eminently watchable "Why Beauty Matters"[1] I don't know how much the readership of HN is versed in contemporary American popular culture's obsession with the round rejection of traditional ideas of beauty. I would go as far as to say that the current leitmotif seems to be 'embrace ugliness & dullness' for the sake of it and little else. Th…

Interesting video. You might find this account of a debate (that happened the same year as that BBC doc) interesting as well. Roger participated in it. http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2009/mar/22/national...

Re: You Could Do Almost Anything Part 1

#14
A well-designed logo relies on its inherent memorability and the strength of its association with its parent brand/entity to create a lasting impression.

It might be informed by the name of the company, but certainly doesn't need to achieve a one-to-one association with the visual letterforms--we don't expect the reverse after all.

Memorability and distinctiveness is the end goal, and if your brand is strong enough that a simple mark will be sufficiently distinctive, then it's to your advantage to adopt a simple mark.

No one will forget that Microsoft is four boxes, and that the Internet is a blue e, even though these marks are visually panned, and in a context-free environment, only loosely associated with their parent brands.

Re: You Could Do Almost Anything Part 1

#17
post #2

> Instead, the logo is noteworthy precisely because it has achieved critical acclaim despite, or more accurately, because of its failure to communicate. That, right there, is a damning indictment of the entire modernist project: communication achieves acclaim because it fails to communicate; art achieves acclaim because it fails to be beautiful; life achieves acclaim because it is sterile. As an aside, I love the dry…

That, right there, is a damning indictment of your understanding of modernist design and art. Visual communication achieved acclaim because it prioritized functionality over decoration and did so with the tools of reduction and abstraction. Art achieved acclaim because it prioritized the idea over the object.

As an aside, your tone makes you sound like a puerile weasel.

Re: You Could Do Almost Anything Part 1

#18
post #2

> Instead, the logo is noteworthy precisely because it has achieved critical acclaim despite, or more accurately, because of its failure to communicate. That, right there, is a damning indictment of the entire modernist project: communication achieves acclaim because it fails to communicate; art achieves acclaim because it fails to be beautiful; life achieves acclaim because it is sterile. As an aside, I love the dry…

>communication achieves acclaim because it fails to communicate

I'm not sure that's the point. I think the MITP logo communicates plenty - just not the letters MITP.

But then the MITP itself is redundant. Once you know a book is from MITP, you'll know it's from MITP whenever you see the logo.

Meanwhile the logo includes a selection of visual puns and allusions - machine rhythms, digital precision and predictability, books on a shelf, book pages, and so on.

It's not that modernism is ambiguous, it's that modernism has consistently tried to move past literal single-view single-meaning interpretations to condensed abstractions that suggest multiple views simultaneously.

It's actually about implying and suggesting as much as possible with as little as possible.

This is fine as far as it goes, but you now have a problem - instead of making a single straightforward statement that can be read by almost anyone who's literate, you're relying on a viewer's ability to read an abstraction in a way that makes sense of at least some of the same associations.

If you do this properly, you've packed in a lot more information, at the cost of making it inaccessible to many viewers.

It's now more visual haiku than plain talking, and it only works for some of the potential audience.

What happens next is worse. You have a situation where less adept talents claim to be able to pack in meaning when really they don't. They produce a cargo cult knock-off of a successful design, they decorate it with explanations written in text in a supporting document to sell it, but they don't truly manage to include the allusions they claim to be including.

This is where modernism stops working. You get something that's really just been converted back into a single-view statement or object in a naive and superficial way, and it completely fails to have the depth of a genuine rich abstraction.

It looks minimal, but it's all surface and imitation with no creative compression. That's when the communication stops and you have something that's likely to be annoying and useless, and probably ugly too.

Re: You Could Do Almost Anything Part 1

#19
post #2

> Instead, the logo is noteworthy precisely because it has achieved critical acclaim despite, or more accurately, because of its failure to communicate. That, right there, is a damning indictment of the entire modernist project: communication achieves acclaim because it fails to communicate; art achieves acclaim because it fails to be beautiful; life achieves acclaim because it is sterile. As an aside, I love the dry…

This author seems to have a very prescriptive stance on what a logo "should be." I see the logo as abstract art. Maybe you don't know that it says MITP or that it vaguely represents books on a shelf until you are told these things, but then you (might) go "oh cool, I can see it now." It achieved critical acclaim because it is clever and ultimately resonated with people, that's it. I don't see how it "failed" at anyth…

The problem here is that this is taking place in the context of design as a profession. If it doesn't matter what your logo looks like because its meaning will be imbued by history, and if the form of the art isn't important, then why do you need professional logo designers? Why would you want the opinion of an 'expert' if an expert's opinion isn't important?

Is the author's opinion an expert opinion? Would you pay for it?

So we can paraphrase Beirut: "I'm a world renowned master logo-smith. I will be heralded as a master communicator. But you could do almost anything. I don't design my logos to communicate, because that's not important." And we're left to work out the values and hypocrisies that are all established into this culture.

Re: You Could Do Almost Anything Part 1

#20

This is basically art and design critique by a pedant. "B-b-but their actions don't match their words" is the most uninspired of all criticisms. A logo is successful if it generates results, not if it is consistent with whatever principles the critic determines a good logo should adhere to. "You Could Do Almost Anything" is basically the complaint of either unrecognized talent, or the untalented, against the institut…

> This is basically art and design critique by a pedant. "B-b-but their actions don't match their words" is the most uninspired of all criticisms.

You're required to be pedantic if you want to examine something with any rigor. And yes, I'm asking that the designers provide justifications that logically cohere with the logo they are selling.

> A logo is successful if it generates results, not if it is consistent with whatever principles the critic determines a good logo should adhere to.

This is weak. It's a sort of argument to immensity–that if a company is big enough, it can "almost do anything" at all. It's the same argument that Bierut made, and I don't buy it. It's an essentially anti-critical position. One cannot judge a logo by a large company because by sheer weight, they will make that logo stick.

Moreover, I'm not providing the criteria for judgment–I'm pulling them straight from Cooper's mouth.

> is basically the complaint of either unrecognized talent, or the untalented, against the institution for failing to recognize someone whose work follows all the rules, but lacks spirit.

Tu quoque fallacy.

> This, for me, betrays the true roots of this critique -- unexamined appreciation for all things old, and refusal to recognize merit in new interpretations or to, even temporarily, suspend judgment.

This is invalid on its face. Half this essay is devoted to critiquing a logo from 1964.

> The author's own logo fails many of the standards that he holds for these other logos.

Tu quoque again.

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