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Judge Who Authorized Police Search of Privacy Activists Wasn't Told About Tor

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Re: Judge Who Authorized Police Search of Privacy Activists Wasn't Told About Tor

#91

Post by iadnal »

jakobegger wrote: post #63
ajmurmann wrote: post #47

Let me pay devil's advocate for a moment: let's say I want to do bad things on the Internet and obviously I don't want to get my house raided. So now I set up a Tor node in my house. Doing that I created reasonable doubt and my house can't get raided.

I think that traffic originating from an IP address is very weak evidence, regardless of whether someone runs a Tor node or not. With all the malware and insecure, unsupported software running everywhere, it might be more likely than not that random illegal traffic is coming from IPs whose owners are oblivious. I would hope that law enforcement has more evidence than just an IP in a server log when they raid your pla…

It's unlikely that an exit node operator would be convicted in the US unless the raid turned up illegal content actually hosted on their computers.

Re: Judge Who Authorized Police Search of Privacy Activists Wasn't Told About Tor

#92

Post by rdtsc »

riskable wrote: post #86

Here's what I don't understand: You go to a judge for a warrant and the only piece of evidence you have an IP address . How is an IP address even remotely considered "evidence" enough to search someone's home? An IP address is not an identity. It is not a location. It is not even permanent in most cases! I cannot fathom that police are granted warrants to search and seize people's homes and property based solely on,…

It just highlights the rubber-stamp aspect of it. How many of the search warrants are reject really?

For example in case of the FISA court:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig...

Since 2010 there have been more than 6000 requests and 0 denials.

They could have showed up with anything, and request would have been granted. I have no doubt that both parties see this as "need to follow rules" formality and nothing else.

Re: Judge Who Authorized Police Search of Privacy Activists Wasn't Told About Tor

#93

Post by imchillyb »

downandout wrote: post #85

I'm all for privacy technologies like Tor, but this is one of the risks you assume when you operate an exit node. The alternative would be to give all Tor exit node operators not only legal immunity, but immunity from investigation, for illegal activities originating from any IP address associated with them. Even if the judge and the police were aware of the exit node, it wouldn't have changed the way this was invest…

You jest about immunity, but...

We don't prosecute the Department of Transportation when someone transports several hundred million dollars of cocaine across their roads.

Why should we treat digital highways, overpasses, and offramps, any differently?

Re: Judge Who Authorized Police Search of Privacy Activists Wasn't Told About Tor

#94

Post by kempbellt »

walrus01 wrote: post #79

The warrant is ridiculous even without the tor part. Read pages #6 and #7. http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2016/04/08/1460... ISPs maintain hash values of known child porn files? Show me a single ISP in the Seattle area that runs any of its residential customer http traffic through a caching proxy that examines and hashes each file, I'll eat my shoe.

There is so much explaining going on here that it seems like the judge has no understanding of how the internet works.

If that's the case, how could the judge be able to give a reasonable response to this affidavit? Seems like a case that requires such a long-winded technical preface could at least be handled by a judge who knows what an IP address is...

Re: Judge Who Authorized Police Search of Privacy Activists Wasn't Told About Tor

#95

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

usrusr wrote: post #55

I never understood the value of a judge authorization requirements for surveillance. Has there ever been a recorded case where the request was denied, except maybe for even more shady reasons? I just don't see any incentive the judge could have to actually make an informed decision instead of just issuing rubber-stamp approval. Even in the unlikely worst case scenario of a scandal of rampant spouse-spying, a simple "…

I just don't see any incentive the judge could have to actually make an informed decision

Some people pride themselves on doing their jobs as well as they know how.

Re: Judge Who Authorized Police Search of Privacy Activists Wasn't Told About Tor

#96

Post by downandout »

imchillyb wrote: post #93
downandout wrote: post #85

I'm all for privacy technologies like Tor, but this is one of the risks you assume when you operate an exit node. The alternative would be to give all Tor exit node operators not only legal immunity, but immunity from investigation, for illegal activities originating from any IP address associated with them. Even if the judge and the police were aware of the exit node, it wouldn't have changed the way this was invest…

You jest about immunity, but... We don't prosecute the Department of Transportation when someone transports several hundred million dollars of cocaine across their roads. Why should we treat digital highways, overpasses, and offramps, any differently?

This isn't even close to a reasonable comparison. Until it can be investigated, the only available suspect in a case where illegal activity originates from a given home user's IP is that user. The DOT isn't the sole operator and user of the roads it builds.

Re: Judge Who Authorized Police Search of Privacy Activists Wasn't Told About Tor

#97

Post by TearsInTheRain »

kempbellt wrote: post #94
walrus01 wrote: post #79

The warrant is ridiculous even without the tor part. Read pages #6 and #7. http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2016/04/08/1460... ISPs maintain hash values of known child porn files? Show me a single ISP in the Seattle area that runs any of its residential customer http traffic through a caching proxy that examines and hashes each file, I'll eat my shoe.

There is so much explaining going on here that it seems like the judge has no understanding of how the internet works. If that's the case, how could the judge be able to give a reasonable response to this affidavit? Seems like a case that requires such a long-winded technical preface could at least be handled by a judge who knows what an IP address is...

I wonder if there should be a certification system in place before judges can rule on technical topics

Re: Judge Who Authorized Police Search of Privacy Activists Wasn't Told About Tor

#98

Post by lallysingh »

rayiner wrote: post #62
Synaesthesia wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really shouldn't be illegal, it should be protected, like free speech, as noted in the article, "It's like raiding the mailman's house for delivering an illegal letter with no return address" In fact I think that's why they withheld the fact that he runs a TOR node from the judge.

Given that most of the content on Tor is illegal,[1] I'm not sure the mail is really the appropriate analogy. [1] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/02/survey_of_the...

Most of Tor usage is as a proxy back to the regular internet. I don't think you meant to, but the term "content on Tor" can be misleading in that respect, restricting the discussion to hidden services when the context is often Tor use in general.

Re: Judge Who Authorized Police Search of Privacy Activists Wasn't Told About Tor

#99

Post by codyb »

TearsInTheRain wrote: post #97
kempbellt wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much explaining going on here that it seems like the judge has no understanding of how the internet works. If that's the case, how could the judge be able to give a reasonable response to this affidavit? Seems like a case that requires such a long-winded technical preface could at least be handled by a judge who knows what an IP address is...

I wonder if there should be a certification system in place before judges can rule on technical topics

But then might there not need to be a certification for other areas as well? Might be a hard thing to set up.

Re: Judge Who Authorized Police Search of Privacy Activists Wasn't Told About Tor

#100

Post by downandout »

walrus01 wrote: post #79

The warrant is ridiculous even without the tor part. Read pages #6 and #7. http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2016/04/08/1460... ISPs maintain hash values of known child porn files? Show me a single ISP in the Seattle area that runs any of its residential customer http traffic through a caching proxy that examines and hashes each file, I'll eat my shoe.

Apparently, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children provides ISPs with a hash database of known illegal images [1]. ISPs are then required by statute to notify the government when images with matching hashes cross their network [2].

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2258C

[2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2258A

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