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Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

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Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#421

Post by Arzh »

limelight wrote: post #329
incepted wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the point we make in the book is that few employees expect or want lifetime employment at a single company Any citation about this claim? Because in my experience, it's completely incorrect. Outside of the US, lifetime employment is a heavily coveted goal, because economies outside of the US are in a terrible shape overall with unemployment rate routinely above 10%. Inside the US, except for white collar workers in…

I think it's overwhelmingly a generational thing, not a "white collar" thing. Older white collar workers still want/expect lifetime employment, while young workers of all kinds are more comfortable with labor fluidity. The vast majority of my young friends are uninterested in jobs which would provide lifetime employment. (As am I.) Honestly, it was incredibly risky for HubSpot to hire Lyons and the outcome seems pred…

I don't think we are more comfortable with it, the people I know think it sucks and would usually love to stick with the same company if they are given stuff they like to work on. It's great when I get to work with someone who has been with a company for 10 or 12 years. We do have an understanding though that the jerks that are running most of these startups don't think that way and we have to just put up with it.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#422

Post by lyqwyd »

intended wrote: post #282
lyqwyd wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is about passion, I think it's about a culture mis-match. Lyons is looking for a place with stability, and that was not HubSpot. In this case it was probably HubSpot's error in hiring him in the first, as they have a very clear opinion of their culture. I think Lyons would not have been happy at any tech company, the fact that he considers a company that was a year away from IPO, and almost 10 year…

Your last statement is incorrect - they care about their job, but are not passionate about it. Your statement inadvertently highlights the point on language which is being made in the article and in this thread. Lack of Passion != disinterest.

I'll agree with your last, but your first statement is as incorrect as well. How do you know they care about it?

If somebody is passionate, then they certainly do care about it, but you are correct lack of passion does not equal lack of care, so I'll revise my statment.

Public service is the last place I want somebody who is not passionate about their job.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#423

Post by incepted »

openfuture wrote: post #291
incepted wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the point we make in the book is that few employees expect or want lifetime employment at a single company Any citation about this claim? Because in my experience, it's completely incorrect. Outside of the US, lifetime employment is a heavily coveted goal, because economies outside of the US are in a terrible shape overall with unemployment rate routinely above 10%. Inside the US, except for white collar workers in…

Have you ever left the US? There is no way not wanting lifetime employment is something unique to the US, it seems far more likely that it would be connected to status than nationality (and that has been my experience for what it's worth)

I spent the first thirty years of my life in a European country.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#424

Post by loup-vaillant »

chrisyeh wrote: post #414
loup-vaillant wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dan Lyons is misrepresenting us when he implies that we believe that employees should be loyal to companies even though companies show no loyalty to employees. I didn't read it like that. It's pretty clear from your statement (even taken out of context) that you expect lower loyalty on both sides. On the other hand there are bosses that would like loyal employees, even though they're not loyal themselves. They may…

The issue of what individuals who lack currently marketable skills should do is a tough one. Note that I didn't say unskilled...skills that once were valuable can become less valuable quite rapidly in our fast-changing world. Since we can't predict the future, we shouldn't blame those individuals who were unlucky enough to have invested in now-worthless skills. As a society, we need to understand that investing in re…

Note that re-training may not be enough, if structural unemployment is still significant. To describe this problem, I like the analogy of feeding dogs in a desert island:

1 desert island with nothing to eat, 100 dogs. Every day, a chopper comes in and drop 95 pieces of meat. 95 dogs can eat, the 5 slowest are left starving. A dog trainer sees that, and decides to train the slower dogs so they can eat. And they do. Now 5 other dogs are left starving.

My current take on this is, employment is overrated. We should find other ways to live our lives.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#426

Post by naasking »

morgante wrote: post #365
naasking wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's abundant evidence that there are vast differences in the productivity of different programmers in the same company. That seems true for every type of job.

Actually the level of difference varies between jobs substantially. Many low-skill jobs exhibit little-to-no differentiation between workers (it's hard to be much more efficient as a security guard, for example).

That's only true if efficiency is your only metric, but that's not meanginful for all jobs. Certainly there will be an order of magnitude difference in effectiveness of some security guards over others.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#427

Post by chrisyeh »

Arzh wrote: post #421
limelight wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's overwhelmingly a generational thing, not a "white collar" thing. Older white collar workers still want/expect lifetime employment, while young workers of all kinds are more comfortable with labor fluidity. The vast majority of my young friends are uninterested in jobs which would provide lifetime employment. (As am I.) Honestly, it was incredibly risky for HubSpot to hire Lyons and the outcome seems pred…

I don't think we are more comfortable with it, the people I know think it sucks and would usually love to stick with the same company if they are given stuff they like to work on. It's great when I get to work with someone who has been with a company for 10 or 12 years. We do have an understanding though that the jerks that are running most of these startups don't think that way and we have to just put up with it.

We strongly believe that longer-term relationships are generally better; how often is your first 6 months on the job the most productive? And if you look at successful companies like Apple, Google, and Facebook, they tend to have low turnover among their key people.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#428

Post by chrisyeh »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #424
chrisyeh wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue of what individuals who lack currently marketable skills should do is a tough one. Note that I didn't say unskilled...skills that once were valuable can become less valuable quite rapidly in our fast-changing world. Since we can't predict the future, we shouldn't blame those individuals who were unlucky enough to have invested in now-worthless skills. As a society, we need to understand that investing in re…

Note that re-training may not be enough, if structural unemployment is still significant. To describe this problem, I like the analogy of feeding dogs in a desert island: 1 desert island with nothing to eat, 100 dogs. Every day, a chopper comes in and drop 95 pieces of meat. 95 dogs can eat, the 5 slowest are left starving. A dog trainer sees that, and decides to train the slower dogs so they can eat. And they do. No…

I think the realization of this reality is one of the things driving the basic income movement. I will be very curious to see if that experiment works out. I honestly don't know if it will or won't.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#429

Post by chrisyeh »

sgt101 wrote: post #410
chrisyeh wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I have sworn a vow not to write specifically about the US election, it is clear that one of the things buoying certain insurgent candidates is the feeling of less-educated working class white Americans that their position in society has been declining. The thing is, they are right; their relatively unskilled labor is no longer valuable to the system (especially when equivalent labor is available at a fraction o…

I think you are right, but for the sake of social stability some sort of more equitable bargain must be struck. The alternative model is visible in Mexico City and San Palo; office commutes by chopper or kidnap and ransom risk every day !

Yes, inequality is self-limiting. Either the haves realize that they need to avoid tearing apart the fabric of society, or the have-nots realize that they represent the majority of the people, and rise up in revolution. The former is a lot less bloody than the latter.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#430

Post by [deleted] »

Gigablah wrote: post #152
timr wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it that way, too. Why does it matter that the guy is writing a book? Why does it matter that the article is marketing for the book? Is it true? Sounds like it is. I read your comment after the edits were applied, and I still thought it was one of those sneaky sorts of "homeopathic ad hominem" attacks where you don't make the attack directly, but instead allude to the "questions" that invoke the attack when con…

I guess the term you're looking for is "concern trolling".

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