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What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

theguardian.com

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Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#171

Post by unclebucknasty »

brightball wrote: post #84
unclebucknasty wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't choose to make umbrellas for the umbrella market, and just keep churning out umbrellas, perpetually disappointed by the fine weather. You do if people keep buying them, irrespective of the weather. You've misread my comment. I'm not saying that the landlords create the market; simply that the landlords chose a market that requires less capital outlay, and also with full knowledge that the market is not ty…

That is entirely the point though. If a landlord is about to chose a market that requires less capital outlay it's because there is an unfilled need in that market. Without the lower cost housing the tenants will only have fewer options, potentially more expensive ones at that. If all of the needs are filled and somebody else decides to target the market then they have to find a way to disrupt it, in this case that p…

We've gotten off track. I'm not arguing whether the market exists or how basic economics in a perfect market work.

If you look back at my original comment it's WRT the assertion that these landlords would love to upgrade their properties and charge higher rents. I was simply saying that's largely untrue. These landlords are aware of the market dynamics/demographic when choosing to invest and have little-to-no desire to "upgrade for higher margins".

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#172

Post by petra »

tmptmp wrote: post #157
petra wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's for a second assume that people stay in the same house for 30 years[1]. Why can't they just purchase the house cooperative slowly with each rent payment ? My grandma in Israel paid rent in a public housing that had exactly such an arrangement, and after becoming a pensioner, she was finally able to purchase her house. And i have no doubt such arrangements are one reason why Israel, a nation establshed from poor…

Maybe it worked for Israel, because it was run by politicians who cared about their people and not by those who cared for the interests of mainly the mega-corporations (e.g. USA) or the interests of mainly the party-workers (e.g. USSR). Such schemes from government are a must. They are much better than "welfare" which just encourages people to be lazy. Edit: added about "welfare".

It worked pretty well in the USSR - housing was generally not a problem. Heck even after the collapse of the USSR economy, people still had a place to live. Can you imagine how hellish it would be if it happened in the US , when everything is private and most don't own?

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#173

Post by petra »

cududa wrote: post #154
petra wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few Ideas: 1. Let a non-profit run those kinds of businesses. The non-profit , before starting would establish clear rules that prevent eviction, discrimination and the other nasty stuff. Financing should be gotten from institutional investors, by promising some fixed rate of return. 2. Let the government run that, it works pretty well in many places around the world , in creating a relatively stable living environme…

2 and 3 sound like basically section 9 housing. I like 1 - any ideas how you'd get the land for these? Would existing trailer parks be bought out?

Either existing parks should be bought, or seeking out new land, i think., but i'm just guessing.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#174

Post by aninhumer »

ultramancool wrote: post #74
stegosaurus wrote: post #67

The headline here is a bit odd - it seems self-evident. If we define the poor as a group which relies on regular labour to survive, and the wealthy as a group who does not, then many income sources of the wealthy dry up if the poor cease to exist. One fairly obvious example is renting. The existence of a rental market is not undesirable. People will always want to live in a place temporarily, as a trial, as a holiday…

Wealth inequality is good for all in a lot of ways, so I hate it when people talk about it like it's an inherently bad thing. If someone does something amazing and unique, they should be able to profit from it. Think about a world with perfect wealth equality and you'd have the opposite sort of problems - like it or not, capitalism and yes, wealth inequality have brought more people out of poverty than any other syst…

>Wealth inequality is good for all in a lot of ways, so I hate it when people talk about it like it's an inherently bad thing.

It's not the wealth inequality that's good for all, it's the capitalist incentive structures. The wealth inequality itself is a negative side effect of those incentives, because it represents an inefficient allocation of resources in terms of utility created.

The question is to what extent the efficiency benefits of capitalist incentives offset the inefficiencies of the resulting wealth inequality. Personally, I think the extent of inequality we permit is far far more than is necessary to incentivise wealth creation. People would still want to be rich even if the alternative didn't suck.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#175

Post by bsbechtel »

There is a line of thinking by many in this thread that if two parties enter into a transaction, and one party has significantly more wealth than the other party, the party with significantly more wealth is automatically guilty of exploiting the party with less wealth, regardless of how said wealth was accumulated. While this may be the case in a small number of transactions, it forgoes the assumption that one is innocent until proven guilty. It also isn't really a productive line of thought in trying to find a solution...assuming guilt/exploitation by those who are better off than us does not make us any better off.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#176

Post by lyqwyd »

This is a very poorly reasoned article. First it frames the options as either poor people are lazy, or rich people are exploiting them into poverty. There are many possible causes of poverty, other than either option.

The title is also ridiculous. Yes, in a market driven economy, some people are going to make a profit off of poor people, but that's true for every economic level. As far as I'm concerned that's only a problem when it's exploitative.

The premise is that landlords are keeping them down through rent, but that is BS as well. There are many voucher programs, and those that receive them don't miraculously escape from poverty.

I'm not opposed to providing housing subsidies for those in poverty conditions, but it is not the cause of poverty.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#177

Post by chc »

dublinben wrote: post #165
bardworx wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Communism very similar to your perfect world? All the people were provided for and they worked for everyone and everyone was equal. However, that didn't work out too well. In any system, some folk will always squatter and some will always attempt to gain power/advantage. Your world sounds too much like Atlas Shrugged.

>However, that didn't work out too well. When was communism actually implemented, that it didn't "work out too well" in your opinion?

Do you mean "actually" or "perfectly"?

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#178

Post by Omniusaspirer »

edko wrote: post #91

Being from a country where we have suffered populist governments who "defend the poor" by increasing their numbers, I am convinced that this is very true. Instead of creating jobs and improving education, they give handouts to the poor, and their number has dramatically increased. These jobless people depend on the handouts, so their vote is guaranteed to go to the populist party. In my country, this technique has be…

This appears to be the trend in most countries, as enabling a population to vote themselves money puts incentives in all the wrong places.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#179

Post by danharaj »

tbrownaw wrote: post #94
duaneb wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because an act provides net value to a community does not mean it is ethical.

So are you claiming that the tenants mentioned are somehow worse off than if those trailers weren't available for rent at all? For something to be unethical, someone has to be harmed by it, yes?

Is it so hard to grasp that local optimization does not necessarily lead to globally favorable conditions?

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#180

Post by grecy »

brbsix wrote: post #152
grecy wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure. Of course they can't, because most of the time even poor people have other options. If there were no laws, every company would do this, and there wouldn't be other option. You think people work in factories in China for $0.50/day even though they have an option to make a good wage? > Quite a bit of my wealth is being "distributed" Not nearly as much as if you lived in another developed country, where your mon…

What you've just said is pretty much identical to "if there were no laws, every company would charge $1 million for every product and there wouldn't be another option". Do you realize how utterly ridiculous that sounds? You really think the only thing preventing a company from paying employees $0.03/hr is a law? Minimum wage in SF is $12.25. By your logic, I should expect every employer to pay no more than $12.25/hr.…

My "logic" is real, not theory.

Without laws, there are people making $0.50/day and the air is not breathable in China.

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