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What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

theguardian.com

121–130 of 462 posts

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#121

What if Marx was right?

> Through his theories of alienation, value, commodity fetishism, and surplus value, Marx argued that capitalism facilitated social relations through commodification and the exploitation of labor.

This is remarkably close to the views expressed in the article, but I guess you're being downvoted because you hit a nerve.

Links for the interested:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alienation_of_labor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_value

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_fetishism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_value

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodification

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation_of_labor

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#123

"The beggar is the necessary supplement to the millionaire." - Henry George, as paraphrased by Tolstoy. Ever since I first saw Henry George's ideas, I can't stop seeing it everywhere; there's a very real difference between the return to rent than for other capital or labor.

For more information, check out Geolibertarianism[1], though Henry George's writings are lucid, rigorous, and energetically written. Progress and Poverty is the best place to start.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolibertarianism

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#124
What if the dominant discourse on poverty is just wrong? What if the problem isn’t that poor people have bad morals – that they’re lazy and impulsive and irresponsible and have no family values – or that they lack the skills and smarts to fit in with our shiny 21st-century economy? What if the problem is that poverty is profitable?

Let me rephrase these biased questions with the opposite bias (well actually I think my version is fair...):

"What if the leftist discourse on poverty is just wrong? What if the problem isn't greedy capitalist profiteers tricking the downtrodden out of their hard earned money? What if the problem was a self-perpetuating cycle where short term lack of resources lead to the inability to make long term plans, or take advantage of opportunities? What if changes in the technology and the economy meant that skills and education are required that large sections of the population do not have?"

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#125
post #3

What if? That's the whole idea of it. It's what keeps highly profitable (to the employee) jobs churning... Nobody would work in the conditions needed for diamond extraction or sweatshop clothing making for example, if it wasn't for dire poverty.

Sure they would. People will do almost any job, if they're paid enough. This is why military contractors in war zones, Arctic crab fishermen, and prostitutes make a lot of money. This is econ 101; supply and demand. You know it too. You're (presumably) not impoverished, but you'd work in diamond extraction or a clothing sweatshop, if you were paid enough.

What you forget is that some jobs just cannot pay enough to make it worth for non-impoverished people. A very clear example is farm jobs in the US. If farmers had to pay real salaries, production costs would go dramatically up. So they depend on undocumented workers. This is similar for the fast food industry and so many other industries that are now operating in third world countries. For these industries, poverty is the natural resource that they depend on. If poverty ended all over the world, a lot of industries would disappear or have to change dramatically to continue existing.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#126
Ugh, this thread is disgusting.

The problem is complex and takes no sides. The poor are unskilled with money because of their environment, upbringing, relationships, and situation; and also because of inherent features. The rich are rich because of their luck, circumstances, upbringing, and situation; and also because of inherent features. The combinations of all of those factors and the interaction between them defines the problem, not any one aspect. This you must understand first.

So yes, absolutely, one of the problems of poverty is that it's profitable to other people; because the poor are powerless to stop it, and the rich are powerful and easily take advantage to the extent they can under their laws and morals. That is the reality, and arguing otherwise reveals our collective immaturity in terms of understanding systems and complexity—the true root cause of our unfair and unbalanced society. Instead of seeing reality, we are often limited by our human capacity and biases that don't help us understand the world—much less respond to in a constructive way.

So let's talk about the systems that influence us all—the article is about one of those systemic problems, and it's fascinating and evidential. It's a good discussion, and it's the right one to have, and I'm always sad that discussions of poverty or inequality devolve into talk of individuals and what they should or should not do. Let's keep our eye on the ball and talk about the whole, and the productive construction of a society that works better.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#127
One thing I find interesting about the current state of affairs is that the top 1% own more than 50% of the world's wealth. Which means that on average if a person just up and decided to not recognize money and property in the current system, they would in theory come up ahead. Now, this might sound technical and perhaps unrealistic, but if this level of wealth inequality continues, then one day enough people (i.e. a significant majority of the people in the world) will realize that they gain a lot just by shrugging off the chains put on them through social conventions, such as the current implementations of money. They can refuse to work and demand changes, and it seems like there wouldn't be any way to pacify that many people except by catering to them and allowing some sort of income equality. Just an interesting, theoretical thought.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#130

Poverty is profitable to other people. People who are in poverty often have to depend on services that are overpriced and predatory. From check cashing services, and payday lenders, to not being able to go to a grocery store where prices are better, but instead depending on smaller stores of convenience where the prices are often higher. The lottery depends on those in poverty. Sometimes I think even the police and c…

While plenty of money comes from businesses serving (or disserving) poor people, even more money comes from businesses serving wealthier people (with some portion of those services also qualifying as rip-offs). The problem with the article is it makes the implication that the money made by vulture capitalists in poor areas is the biggest motivation for the existence of the poor. But one can see a much larger benefici…

> even more money comes from businesses serving wealthier people

Not really. It depends on the country. Some third-world countries have most of the population in poverty, so in that case capitalists can make a lot of money from poor people and have no incentive to do otherwise.

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