Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 462 posts

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#111

Post by worik »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #38
darawk wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the alternative? These people aren't forced to live there. If there were a cheaper, better alternative available to them, they'd probably take it. Nobody is 'profiting from poverty' here. These landlords would make much more money if these people were wealthier! I'm sure they'd love to make nicer places and charge higher rents with higher margins, but they can't, because that's all these people can pay.

> What is the alternative? These people aren't forced to live there. If there were a cheaper, better alternative available to them, they'd probably take it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_cooperative

We had an alternative in Aotearoa for two generations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_housing

It is possible to house every one. Even very sick drug addicts.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#112

Post by StanislavPetrov »

brightball wrote: post #84
unclebucknasty wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't choose to make umbrellas for the umbrella market, and just keep churning out umbrellas, perpetually disappointed by the fine weather. You do if people keep buying them, irrespective of the weather. You've misread my comment. I'm not saying that the landlords create the market; simply that the landlords chose a market that requires less capital outlay, and also with full knowledge that the market is not ty…

That is entirely the point though. If a landlord is about to chose a market that requires less capital outlay it's because there is an unfilled need in that market. Without the lower cost housing the tenants will only have fewer options, potentially more expensive ones at that. If all of the needs are filled and somebody else decides to target the market then they have to find a way to disrupt it, in this case that p…

Except your fantasy of a free real estate market doesn't exist. FED policies, by their own admission, serve to artificially drive up real estate prices, which punish the poorest, who don't own property and are forced to rent. This is a direct subsidy to property owners with the size of the subsidy equal to the amount of property owned. These FED efforts (MBS purchasing, ZIRP, suspension of MTM, QE1-3) to prop up housing also inflate equity and bond markets, further subsidizing the wealthy (while those in poverty who own no stocks or bonds fall further behind).

So yes, people are profiting off of poverty.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#113

Post by orangecat »

grecy wrote: post #27

Of course it profitable, which is why we have things like minimum wage - if WalMart et. al. could, they would pay 3 cents an hour, or even better consume peoples living and eating and entire lives like factories in China. At some point the governments in developed countries have stepped in to set some kind of limit on what's "reasonable". IMHO, they're not doing enough in America right now, the enormous social divide…

if WalMart et. al. could, they would pay 3 cents an hour

Sure. Of course they can't, because most of the time even poor people have other options. Also WalMart has in fact supported raising the minimum wage, which is either a virtuous act of corporate responsibility or an attempt to increase the burden on their competitors.

because the government forces the wealthy to distribute their wealth

I just finished my taxes. Quite a bit of my wealth is being "distributed", unfortunately mostly to well-off retired people and on bombs to drop on the Middle East.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#114

Post by cylinder »

dataker wrote: post #99

There's a single problem with Right vs Left debates: they can't understand the other's point. 1) The Right can't recognize there's a problem with contemporary elites ("They Deserved it"). Poverty is all about the government. 2) The Left can't recognize the government plays a role on this . Inequality is all about greedy rich people.

There's overall a huge problem of lack of nuance in the national conversation in America.

In response to the overwhelming vastness and complexity of this country, debate has degraded into simple truisms yelled at the TV.

Even in immigration - you're either "let everyone in and legalize all the aliens!!!" or "deport everyone and build a wall!"

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#115

Post by awt »

c0nducktr wrote: post #92
awt wrote: post #45

What if poverty is profitable to the government? What if, through welfare, the government encouraged single motherhood, and thus poverty, and thus dependance on the government? What if single mothers were held responsible for their choice to have children with bad men?

> What if single mothers were held responsible for their choice to have children with bad men? Then children will suffer.

Without welfare, the mother would likely give he children up for adoption by responsible people that can afford them. At least she would have that choice, and the choice to raise the children in poverty, thus causing them to suffer, would still be hers.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#117

Post by petra »

CydeWeys wrote: post #49
toomuchtodo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the alternative? These people aren't forced to live there. If there were a cheaper, better alternative available to them, they'd probably take it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_cooperative

You need money to buy into a housing cooperative, and even more to start one (i.e. build a whole new apartment building). The poor people who are renting the apartments in the linked article don't have it; they are living paycheck to paycheck, and frequently falling behind even on that. I'm not seeing a workable alternative beyond government-provided housing, but that doesn't have a good history of success in the US.

Let's for a second assume that people stay in the same house for 30 years[1]. Why can't they just purchase the house cooperative slowly with each rent payment ?

My grandma in Israel paid rent in a public housing that had exactly such an arrangement, and after becoming a pensioner, she was finally able to purchase her house. And i have no doubt such arrangements are one reason why Israel, a nation establshed from poor immigrants did quite well for both economically and socially for relatively long.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#118

Post by lbebber »

mychael wrote: post #96
jdietrich wrote: post #77

The thesis is transparently false. While the deprivations of poverty may be exacerbated by exploitative business practices, they are self-evidently caused by a lack of income. Software developers in San Francisco or lawyers in NYC may complain about high rents, but they are not impoverished by those rents. Someone living on $733/mo of SSI remains poor even if their rent is free. The author mentions a significant root…

This reads to me as "People have no money because they have no money", which is tautological.

Well, exactly: it's very hard to drag yourself out of poverty if you have little money.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#119

Post by awt »

zw123456 wrote: post #59

There is an old saying that "if you took all the money away from all the rich people, and spread it around evenly to everyone else, within 2 or 3 years, all the formerly rich would be rich again having taken advantage of the poor who don't know how to make and keep money". This adage, although heartless to be sure, has some degree of truth to it in my view. The problem is twofold, 1) a lot of people become rich not b…

Read The Anabasis (the Greek version is best) and rethink your conception of exploitation and how the world works, etc.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#120

Post by Axsuul »

pmiller2 wrote: post #83
CydeWeys wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lottos are state-run though. Don't blame the bodega owner, blame the government for financially preying on poor people who are bad at math in the first place. I don't think you can really criticize someone too much for selling something that the government plays ads for on the radio.

> bad at math It's not primarily that people are bad at math. It's that they don't see any other way out. I've seen data that show that people play lotteries "for money" at higher rates the lower their income is. I can't find the exact citation, but here's a CMU article about study that shows something similar: http://www.cmu.edu/news/archive/2008/July/july24_lottery.sht... We really just need to end state-run lotter…

Ending state lotteries is just another form of prohibition. It's part of human nature and population will still end up participating in alternative get rich quick schemes.
Post reply on HN