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What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

theguardian.com

21–30 of 462 posts

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#22

The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots…

This is an excellent point. Another one in a similar vein is things like appliances or other big ticket purchases. The wealthy (or even middle class really, assuming any are left) is that they can buy a new washing machine for example when they're on sale. The poor essentially need to keep using the same washing machine until it dies, at which point either they need to go to the laundromat or buy a new one, and they have to get whatever one Home Depot has at the time at whatever price they're marked at.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#23
post #17
post #5

People in poverty use services and consume goods. Someone provides those goods and services. Would they be better off if every business closed their doors to the impoverished, so as to not "make a buck off the poor"? Of course not! The trailer park owner in the article owns 131 units and "makes" (presumably grosses) $400K a year. Those units are about $250 per month, hardly the stuff of Viking-style pillaging, IMO. T…

And the people that provide goods and services now to the impoverished (especially the actual exploiters, like pay day loans and corner stores, and the manufacturers that supply the junk foods they eat and drink) have a financial incentive to keep people in poverty and grow their demographic. Combine that with an very easily corrupted government like the US has now, and you get corporations dictating policy to preven…

I'm not so sure the corner bodega belongs in the same category with the payday loan assholes.

Yes, the corner bodega is more expensive than the full grocery store, but they also probably have way lower sales per hour of labor, lower sales per square foot, lower sales per other overhead (rent, insurance, security, utilities, taxes), higher credit card interchange fees, higher shrinkage and spoilage, and pay more for their inbound groceries than the large chain down the street. If my guesses are true, all of these are perfectly legitimate business expenses and the corner store owner needs a return on their investment, just like the large chain does. (Grocers operate on razor-thin overall margins. Average net margin for the supermarket industry was 1.3%, 1.9%, and "1-2%" in the first three references I could find online.) Anything that increases costs basically HAS to go to the price as there's nothing else left to flex.

Payday jackholes can DiaF for all I care, but even the prevalence of those is driving in part by the banking regulations meant to "punish the banks" which have the effect of making poor communities "money losing to serve". When the predictable bank pullouts happen and payday lenders move in, it's not that hard to see the connection. Let the banks make a profit and they'll serve the community; prohibit them from making a profit and they won't, leaving only the even less savory financial businesses.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#24
What shines through here is a lesson not only America has never learnt , but one we in the UK are fast forgetting - social policies work

The social safety net is pretty simple. Bob, A healthy worker is made unemployed, they can either take state assistance and find work 6 months later, leading to another 30 years of tax revenue, or let them default on mortgage, spiral into poverty and no tax. Now extend that so Bob needs six months rehab.

Housing built, owned and managed by the state (or so closely regulated it may as well be) has been a cornerstone of the social safety net. This article underlines that.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#25
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Predatory businesses are still exploitation. > Building such a business (and I assume running a 131 unit mobile home park) is absolutely work, the value of which is evident by the paying tenants. Running a sweatshop is still work, the value of which is evident by its customers. Just because someone needs to work or a place to live doesn't make it right or commendable.

What is the alternative? These people aren't forced to live there. If there were a cheaper, better alternative available to them, they'd probably take it. Nobody is 'profiting from poverty' here. These landlords would make much more money if these people were wealthier! I'm sure they'd love to make nicer places and charge higher rents with higher margins, but they can't, because that's all these people can pay.

>they'd love to make nicer places and charge higher rents with higher margins, but they can't, because that's all these people can pay

Nicer places require larger capital outlays. The landlords chose their market, not the other way around.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's think in terms of solutions. Concretely, what would you propose to change to make it better? Have you started to raise funds to start and run that business?

To make poverty better? Free job training and placement, with a living stipend.

Presumably those companies that claim to have openings that they are desperately trying to fill in vain would pay for such training.

Why do you think they do not?

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#27
Of course it profitable, which is why we have things like minimum wage - if WalMart et. al. could, they would pay 3 cents an hour, or even better consume peoples living and eating and entire lives like factories in China.

At some point the governments in developed countries have stepped in to set some kind of limit on what's "reasonable".

IMHO, they're not doing enough in America right now, the enormous social divide is showing that to us clearly. Developed countries that have stronger laws have less people in severe poverty, because the government forces the wealthy to distribute their wealth.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Predatory businesses are still exploitation. > Building such a business (and I assume running a 131 unit mobile home park) is absolutely work, the value of which is evident by the paying tenants. Running a sweatshop is still work, the value of which is evident by its customers. Just because someone needs to work or a place to live doesn't make it right or commendable.

Let's think in terms of solutions. Concretely, what would you propose to change to make it better? Have you started to raise funds to start and run that business?

Subsidized, cheaper or government housing through legislation.

> Have you started to raise funds to start and run that business?

No, because the incentives to continuously draw a greater profit from your customers goes against the need to provide housing to those who can't afford it.

Re: What if the problem of poverty is that it’s profitable to other people?

#29
The profitability of poverty is foundational to how capitalism works. Workers work, heirs do not. How do heirs manage to expropriate wealth workers create during their surplus labor time? The answer is the reserve army of labor - keep people unemployed or underemployed as a level to use against those who do work.

One sign of this is that unemployment did not even exist several centuries ago in any kind of manner - all those who were capable (except again, those on top expropriating wealth created during worker's surplus labor time) worked.

This is openly discussed in the business press, like this (http://www.businessweek.com/1999/99_44/b3653163.htm ) BusinessWeek article "When is the jobless rate too low?" It's not a secret that those who control production are working to create unemployment, poverty etc. It's a foundation of the current economic system.

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