Congratulations You’ve Been Fired • Hacker News Board

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#391

Post by chrisyeh » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 4:51 PM UTC

jhbadger wrote: post #382

humanrebar wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the middlings who need to worry about power imbalances and who take jobs with lousy bosses and put up with lousy coworkers. In my experience, many people (I don't like the word 'middlings' for some reason) think job to job instead of about a career. And then they have job problems. Likewise, many people think paycheck to paycheck instead about longer-term finances. And then they have cash flow problems. Isn't…

What "better jobs" are you thinking of that a typical truck driver could be realistically trained for? It reminds me of when the US steel mills closed in the 1970s and 1980s and people said -- "we can just retrain these workers for a lucrative computer career!". Didn't really happen. The elimination of unskilled/low-skilled labor through automation is major problem for society that is only going to get worse.

One of the big challenges we face as a society is managing these kinds of transitions. In 1900, the majority of Americans worked on farms. We managed that transition, but we had decades to do so. If self-driving cars eliminate all driving jobs in a single decade, the dislocation will be immense.

This is where government action will be required; this is a society-wide problem that needs a society-wide solution.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#392

Post by chrisyeh » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 4:58 PM UTC

state_less wrote: post #369

chrisyeh wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) We do specifically address the power imbalance between employers and employees. Because managers typically have more power in the relationship, it is critical that managers take the initiative to prove themselves trustworthy. Now that talent mobility has increased so much, employers who continue to treat employees as disposable are going to have a hard time attracting the best talent. This doesn't mean that all co…

Employers with short expected employee timelines leads to a culture of highly disposable workers for the majority of employees, since most employees are less powerful. Not everyone can leave in two years to work for Google, Facebook, etc.. due to children or wanting to have a life outside of work. This culture and the disposability of employees leads to high demands and negatively impacts employees' health. If the em…

Sadly, many (thought not all) corporate executives see their sole responsibility as maximizing shareholder value. Coordinated government action would likely be more effective than relying on the goodness of people's hearts. The problem is that those who behave responsibly handicap their own financial performance; it's hard to ask people to voluntarily act against their own economic interests.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#393

Post by charlieok » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 5:00 PM UTC

T2_t2 wrote: post #168

chrisyeh wrote: post #125

For the record, I'm one of the co-authors of "The Alliance," which Dan Lyons refers to in his op ed. Dan refers to our book and quotes a single sentence fragment: "Your company is not your family." Everything else he writes in that section of the piece has nothing to do with the content of the book. 1) "You’re serving a “tour of duty” that might last a year or two" Actually, the book makes it clear that the duration…

I don't think Dan Lyons misrepresents your ideas, but rather I think more fundamentally he doesn't share your vocabulary, worldview nor expectations. The reverse is also true, and your arguments in return don't use worldview or definitions he would understand nor recognise. The modern world seems to be a constant case of vocabulary misunderstanding, where we all say "widget", and I mean thing and you mean "an element…

If “maximise skill development” were really so central, I would be much happier with the working environment.

I think that would involve some combination of:

* Choice over what kind of tasks you work on

* Freedom to spend some extra time on a task, both to get it to a level of quality you are happy with and to use the opportunity to learn the domain in question a little better

* Blocks of time to work on a maker's schedule; to read, concentrate, and work with minimal interruption from coworkers

These things benefit not only the happiness and well-being of a software engineer (which is where I'll focus since that's what I am and this is hacker news) but also his/her ability to learn and improve over time.

In the short term, these things might make you less valuable to the business by not being at the constant beck and call of others, and taking longer on tasks.

In the long term, I think they would more than pay for themselves for all concerned. If I were offered these sorts of improvements to the working arrangement in exchange for a pay cut, I'd be very very interested.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#394

Post by chrisyeh » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 5:01 PM UTC

sgt101 wrote: post #310

chrisyeh wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) We do specifically address the power imbalance between employers and employees. Because managers typically have more power in the relationship, it is critical that managers take the initiative to prove themselves trustworthy. Now that talent mobility has increased so much, employers who continue to treat employees as disposable are going to have a hard time attracting the best talent. This doesn't mean that all co…

It's good and fair that you have been able to lay out your real position in this discussion to people who haven't read your full text. Your comments certainly deliver a much more sensible and reasonable perspective than the article would indicate. I especially agree with 3, the corner cases of behaviour on both sides (labour & capital) can be mitigated and controlled with policy and law. Capitalism and socialism both…

While I have sworn a vow not to write specifically about the US election, it is clear that one of the things buoying certain insurgent candidates is the feeling of less-educated working class white Americans that their position in society has been declining.

The thing is, they are right; their relatively unskilled labor is no longer valuable to the system (especially when equivalent labor is available at a fraction of the price in other countries). Where they are wrong is the belief that isolationist and anti-immigrant policies will restore a happy time when blue collar workers without a college education or special training could have secure, well-paid jobs that would allow them to live a comfortable middle-class existence.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#395

Post by chrisyeh » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

tjmc wrote: post #357

chris_wot wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. If I may also respond: 1. That doesn't necessarily follow. In any economy there will always be talent, but the issue here is that you refer to the "best" talent - surely such a scenario you give also implies that once you are no longer the best talent, although you were so at one point, you can be perceived as no longer so and this you can be replaced? There will also alwa…

Unfortunately most Australian employers can easily work around #3 by just employing staff on short fixed term contracts. Then they're under no obligation to renew them. In theory they have to offer permanent employment after a certain time, but there are lots of ways around that. I worked as a casual staff member at a university here for 8 years and they just shuffled me to a different department when I got close to…

Sadly, this is true around the world. Job protections tend to help incumbents, and result in an "underclass" of "temporary" workers. This even affects public sector jobs in the United States.

It's like squeezing a tube of toothpaste; squeeze in one place, and the laws of economics cause the paste to come out in another.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#396

Post by sah2ed » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

rpgmaker wrote: post #190

CPLX wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes he's doing PR for a book by telling bits and pieces of the same story in other media. That's what writers do for a living. If you genuinely want to get a read on the guy listen to this long form interview on Fresh Air from a couple days ago: http://www.npr.org/2016/04/05/473097951/laid-off-tech-journa... He comes across as quite lucid and nuanced in my opinion, and also credible, as he has been covering the tech…

There was another, longer excerpt featured on HN recently does anyone have the link? I think it was also on the NYT. Or maybe it was a profile about HubSpot written by another person. Not sure anymore.

My Year in Startup Hell [1]

[1] http://fortune.com/disrupted-excerpt-hubspot-startup-dan-lyo...

[2] HN discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11369632

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#397

Post by chrisyeh » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 5:08 PM UTC

shawn-butler wrote: post #312

chrisyeh wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

vonklaus, this is precisely how I feel. It's fine if Dan Lyons disagrees with me, but he shouldn't tell people that I'm saying something that I'm not.

You think you have a right to interpret your own words? It's kind of a basic tenet of poststructuralism that a text can have multiple meanings, one of which might be intended, but none of which uniquely are compelled. If you don't want to subject your words to interpretation then don't publish. It would be one thing if author was plagiarizing or misattributing, but that doesn't really seem to be the case.

Actually, what's happening is subtler. He quotes 6 words, and then makes a series of statements that could be interpreted as reflecting the ideas of our book.

If he had simply said something along the lines of, "I believe that The Alliance calls for employees to show loyalty to companies, but for companies not to show loyalty to employees" (completely not true, by the way) it would be clear that he was providing his interpretation of our work. As it is, those who don't read the book will take away an impression that is exactly the opposite of what was originally intended. While words are always subject to interpretation by their audience, I object to my words by misinterpreted by another in a major publication.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#398

Post by chrisyeh » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 5:11 PM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #274

esbranson wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dan Lyons certainly has right to his opinions, but he shouldn't have a right to misrepresent our ideas. That's nonsense. A right to opinions that don't "misrepresent others' ideas" is essentially no right at all.

It's not a matter of Lyons having an opinion, it's a matter of him misrepresenting the opinions of Yeh . You could sloppily quote a book to make the message seem like anything , and it feels like that could border on defamation. A malicious version of this would be lying about somebody to injure their reputation, which is not obviously something you have a right to do. This case isn't grave or clear-cut so it's not g…

In this case, I've concluded that the best response is to engage with people on this thread. I've always enjoyed Dan's work as a journalist (especially his Fake Steve Jobs project) and while I'm disappointed that he doesn't get what my book is about, I suspect he hasn't had a chance to actually read it. I'm sure there are many cases in which I've misinterpreted others' books. But I do think it makes sense to try to get my side of the story out to the audience.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#399

Post by jlarocco » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 5:26 PM UTC

charlieok wrote: post #393

T2_t2 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Dan Lyons misrepresents your ideas, but rather I think more fundamentally he doesn't share your vocabulary, worldview nor expectations. The reverse is also true, and your arguments in return don't use worldview or definitions he would understand nor recognise. The modern world seems to be a constant case of vocabulary misunderstanding, where we all say "widget", and I mean thing and you mean "an element…

If “maximise skill development” were really so central, I would be much happier with the working environment. I think that would involve some combination of: * Choice over what kind of tasks you work on * Freedom to spend some extra time on a task, both to get it to a level of quality you are happy with and to use the opportunity to learn the domain in question a little better * Blocks of time to work on a maker's sc…

Honestly, I think too many people take their situation as a given and don't look at it as something they can change and improve for themselves.

> * Choice over what kind of tasks you work on

At a high level, you already do that by choosing one job over another.

> * Freedom to spend some extra time on a task, both to get it to a level of quality you are happy with and to use the opportunity to learn the domain in question a little better

That should be in your schedule estimate. When the PM asks "How long will this take?" the duration you tell them should include time to understand what you're doing and make it nice.

> * Blocks of time to work on a maker's schedule; to read, concentrate, and work with minimal interruption from coworkers

I don't exactly understand what this means. Block off time in your calendar and turn off IM and email. If that doesn't work, go to an empty meeting room or somewhere else quite where people can't find you and work from there.

Re: Congratulations You’ve Been Fired

#400

Post by charlieok » Sun, Apr 10, 2016, 5:36 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #399

charlieok wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If “maximise skill development” were really so central, I would be much happier with the working environment. I think that would involve some combination of: * Choice over what kind of tasks you work on * Freedom to spend some extra time on a task, both to get it to a level of quality you are happy with and to use the opportunity to learn the domain in question a little better * Blocks of time to work on a maker's sc…

Honestly, I think too many people take their situation as a given and don't look at it as something they can change and improve for themselves. > * Choice over what kind of tasks you work on At a high level, you already do that by choosing one job over another. > * Freedom to spend some extra time on a task, both to get it to a level of quality you are happy with and to use the opportunity to learn the domain in ques…

You're right, of course.

My experience has been that the social norms and cues in the workplace are generally stacked against people doing these things, and in the past five years seem to have moved farther away from these ideals rather than closer to them. Maybe that isn't really the trend; that's my perception of it though.

Maybe I just need to do a better job of finding the right arrangement. It doesn't seem like an easy topic to address in the hiring process though. I find that I only really learn what the environment is like by working in it, and even that can change from team to team or month to month.