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Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

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Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#31

Post by grokys »

irixusr wrote: post #20

More speculation that confirms our theory without any evidence. * The theory is "we're good. Anyone we don't like is bad" The evidence collection goes "confirms our theory, it's true." Or " Contradicts it, we either ignore it our dismiss it" Case in point, the unaoil scandal is much more serious than anything in these Panama papers, it involves "the good guys" and it's largely forgotten a week after it release. * iro…

Interestingly the Unaoil scandal wasn't even reported by the BBC (except a brief mention on their World Service). I'm interested to know exactly why this scandal on the other hand is being covered so heavily by them and other outlets.

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#32

Post by throwaway5752 »

Grue3 wrote: post #23

Well, Putin himself claimed that Panama Papers are "western propaganda" so there's no way for him to spin them as legitimate after that.

Propaganda is not known for or particularly concerned with consistency ('we've always been at war with Eastasia'). I don't know who did this and don't have an opinion personally, but your conclusion (though logical) isn't particularly meaningful for attribution.

From what I've observed, the Russian political class is not particularly concerned with hiding financial corruption.

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#33

Post by throwaway5752 »

irixusr wrote: post #20

More speculation that confirms our theory without any evidence. * The theory is "we're good. Anyone we don't like is bad" The evidence collection goes "confirms our theory, it's true." Or " Contradicts it, we either ignore it our dismiss it" Case in point, the unaoil scandal is much more serious than anything in these Panama papers, it involves "the good guys" and it's largely forgotten a week after it release. * iro…

RT is propaganda/psyops on a level that doesn't quite have a Western equivalent. This is not a statement in support of Western journalistic independence and objectivity, so much as it is how carefully packaged/constructed RT is.

edit: Hah! Downvotes. I read RT. I read WSJ (even OpEds sometimes, but I don't enjoy it). I read AJ. I read NYT. I read from many sources and high degree of skepticism of all of them. But if you read RT regularly, I doubt you're the one downvoting.

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#34

Post by losteric »

thedevil wrote: post #22

This reads like propaganda and misses what I consider a big question: why did Putin claim himself as "the main target" when the media wasn't focused on him and there was no evidence really damning him? It just raises questions rather than deflecting them. Putin does not seem so stupid. Why would he do this? It's like getting pulled over for a speeding ticket and saying "I didn't kill him, there's no evidence, this is…

Well there was some pretty damning evidence, maybe Putin was hoping western media would blow it up more so he could claim it wasn't him.

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#35

Post by ci5er »

havetocharge wrote: post #18

The author is focused on making a case that the Russians are behind the Panama Papers and have an ulterior motive. Not once he mentions that the behaviours the papers expose are criminal or otherwise negative. Even while discussing wrongdoing by Western parties, the Russians are implied to be more villainous.

> Not once he mentions that the behaviors the papers expose are criminal

Are they criminal? Having an offshore company generally isn’t illegal. There may be questions about how some political figures' (for example) funds were obtained in the first place, but the mere existence of funds in some tax-advantaged vehicles is no evidence of a crime.

gosh, one would think that some of the funds might be ill-gotten proceeds from criminal enterprises, but if the use of off-shore entities are prima facie evidence of criminal intent, then I'm in trouble.

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#36

Post by dnautics »

contemporary2u wrote: post #17

who released this info and for what reasons exactly will always be the question that i think will never be answered, but lets not forget that information itself seems to be legit. Iceland's PM resignation confirms that, at least partially. Everyone knows that Russia is corrupt up to the top. How? Pretty much every top politician (and their families) in russia own far more than can be purchased on a state salary. Spok…

> It is possible that USA players simply use different entities to set up shell corps and transfer money using different channels.

Pretty much that, as well as the fact that Americans are world leaders in tax compliance and these people are three sigma tax dodgers, so there will be disproportionately less Americans among them.

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#37

Post by havetocharge »

ci5er wrote: post #35
havetocharge wrote: post #18

The author is focused on making a case that the Russians are behind the Panama Papers and have an ulterior motive. Not once he mentions that the behaviours the papers expose are criminal or otherwise negative. Even while discussing wrongdoing by Western parties, the Russians are implied to be more villainous.

> Not once he mentions that the behaviors the papers expose are criminal Are they criminal ? Having an offshore company generally isn’t illegal. There may be questions about how some political figures' (for example) funds were obtained in the first place, but the mere existence of funds in some tax-advantaged vehicles is no evidence of a crime. gosh, one would think that some of the funds might be ill-gotten proceeds…

There is an 'or' in there. Anyway, I'm not a lawyer or a judge, and the assertion that there is a crime is not related to the point was trying to make.

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#38

Post by jug »

No way I am believing that. If I'd believe in consoiracies, I'd rather say it is a US leak... The USA is less involved here than Putin's own government. Makes no sense. No, it is no excuse that Putin was already suspected, because these papers are further damaging as solid proof that he is surrounding himself with corruption. Not just rumors.

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#39

Post by sevensor »

thedevil wrote: post #22

This reads like propaganda and misses what I consider a big question: why did Putin claim himself as "the main target" when the media wasn't focused on him and there was no evidence really damning him? It just raises questions rather than deflecting them. Putin does not seem so stupid. Why would he do this? It's like getting pulled over for a speeding ticket and saying "I didn't kill him, there's no evidence, this is…

I'm not sure how any of this comes off as bad for Putin. What's the harm in letting the world know that his friends get rich? Combined with what we already know about the effects on life expectancy of being in the opposition, this sends a pretty strong message. "Gold for my friends, lead for my enemies." I see the whole thing as a declaration from Putin to Russia, especially given his protestations. Authoritarian regimes are all about internal social control. Why do we think this has to be about the West?

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#40

Post by [deleted] »

ci5er wrote: post #35
havetocharge wrote: post #18

The author is focused on making a case that the Russians are behind the Panama Papers and have an ulterior motive. Not once he mentions that the behaviours the papers expose are criminal or otherwise negative. Even while discussing wrongdoing by Western parties, the Russians are implied to be more villainous.

> Not once he mentions that the behaviors the papers expose are criminal Are they criminal ? Having an offshore company generally isn’t illegal. There may be questions about how some political figures' (for example) funds were obtained in the first place, but the mere existence of funds in some tax-advantaged vehicles is no evidence of a crime. gosh, one would think that some of the funds might be ill-gotten proceeds…

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