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Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

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Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#21
post #19

who released this info and for what reasons exactly will always be the question that i think will never be answered, but lets not forget that information itself seems to be legit. Iceland's PM resignation confirms that, at least partially. Everyone knows that Russia is corrupt up to the top. How? Pretty much every top politician (and their families) in russia own far more than can be purchased on a state salary. Spok…

Agree, I'd be inclined to think it is either a hacker, or an insider, or a US agency. Putin was at the top of the revelations, even if the news was unsurprising (but like the Snowden documents, it's not because we all suspected it that the proof is any less valuable). If the guy who did it is not US authorities, I would not not sleep well if I was him. The police in London regularly picks up the hung or poisoned bodi…

Top 10 countries that offer financial secrecy, according to the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35998801

Switzerland

Hong Kong

USA

Singapore

The Cayman Islands

Luxembourg

Lebanon

Germany

Bahrain

United Arab Emirates

Panama seems to be down at the low-rent end of the financial secrecy market.

So no - the OP is not only not plausible, but raises more questions than it answers.

Practically, I'd expect a Russian hack to specifically target the tax affairs of Putin's enemies.

This may yet happen now, with Russian and/or Chinese hackers targeting the tax secrets of prominent Western politicians - which would be an interesting development for everyone.

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#22
This reads like propaganda and misses what I consider a big question: why did Putin claim himself as "the main target" when the media wasn't focused on him and there was no evidence really damning him?

It just raises questions rather than deflecting them. Putin does not seem so stupid. Why would he do this?

It's like getting pulled over for a speeding ticket and saying "I didn't kill him, there's no evidence, this is a plot against me".

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#25

This reads like propaganda and misses what I consider a big question: why did Putin claim himself as "the main target" when the media wasn't focused on him and there was no evidence really damning him? It just raises questions rather than deflecting them. Putin does not seem so stupid. Why would he do this? It's like getting pulled over for a speeding ticket and saying "I didn't kill him, there's no evidence, this is…

Amoungst the first big articles published were revelations about putin's freinds 2 billion in offshore money and China's PM's Suster abd Freind having offshore accounts.

But we recieved nothing about america. We have recieved some stuff about the UK but 30k of taxed money is not illegal at all.

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#27
As a Russian citizen who is following the scandal (and Russian politics), I am a bit baffled by the article.

First, all of its reasoning will fall apart if we examine its premises.

>there is no evidence of Putin’s direct involvement—not in any company involved in the leak, much less in criminal activity, theft, tax evasion, or money laundering. There are documents showing that some of his “friends” have moved “up to two billion dollars” through these Panama-based shell companies.

This isn't true and the author is either deliberately lying or is simply misinformed. What we are talking here are $2b moving through the account in the name of a professional cellist Roldugin. Roldugin is a close friend of Putin and he already denied on record that he owns any big business besides his performances. Those $2b came from various shady deals such as:

- an agreement to buy a bunch of Rosneft stocks which is almost immediately terminated, with $750k in punitive damages being paid to a Roldugin's company;

- an agreement to collect an outstanding debt of 4 billion roubles (around $50m) from Rostelekom (state-owned telecom company), which cost $1 (yeah, one dollar) to the offshore company;

- a shell company providing a debt of $6m to Roldugin's offshore and forgiving it after a few months for $1.

A single deal like this is possible but improbable. Two billion dollars of such deals are impossible and they scream "corruption" and "bribe", and there is no single official in Russia that will demand bribes of this order of magnitude except Putin. Even if it's not him, either he is clueless (and the article in question doesn't make sense) or he knows about it and is okay with it (and therefore he is involved).

>But nothing in the Panama Papers reveals anything new about Putin. It is in fact far less of a story than has been alleged for a long time. For over 10 years, there have been suspicions that Putin has a vast personal fortune, claimed at first to be $20 billion, then $40, $70, even $100… And now all they find is “maybe” a couple of billion belonging to a friend?

This passage implies equality of "allegations" and documents detailing business transactions. I'm not sure if I even need to debunk this, but let's recast it a bit: "It's widely alleged that 9/11 was organized by the government because jet fuel can't melt steel beams. Therefore, documents detailing CIA communication with 9/11 terrorists are nothing new and aren't a big deal". Does it even make sense?

>A “friend of Putin” is linked to companies that channel a couple of billion dollars through the offshore companies. Why? To evade Russian taxes? Really? To conceal ownership? From whom? You don’t need an offshore registration to do that. To evade sanctions? That’s a credible reason, but it makes sense only if the companies were registered after mid-2014. Were they?

I like how the author waves away "to conceal ownership" part as if it's a non-issue. It's a pretty big deal because every dictator wants to a) have a backup plan and for this, they need a safe and anonymous place to hide their money away from their country and b) pass the money to their children so they can spend them somewhere. It's not like you can just load up trucks with $50 bills in Kremlin. However, in general, Western countries don't exactly support this and see such funds as a lever, so you need a concealment.

The rest of the article builds upon this premises, which are false. Therefore, it's all false.

Second, what wonders me is the fact that some Westerners are fascinated by Putin and his cronies. It shows up in the way the author speaks about "Russian hacking capabilities" or Putin's implied geopolitical prowess. No, there is nothing to be fascinated about. Those are people who are managed to waste a golden rain of oil money down the drain (just look at the photos of a typical 1m+ Russian city Omsk [1]) while destroying and corrupting every civic institute in the country. It's a typical reactive behavior of a plutocratic rule that got lucky with oil prices and now tries to stay afloat while having no regard for a wellbeing of their own citizens. I don't believe statesmen like this are even remotely worthy of admiration, and yet some do admire them. This is something beyond my understanding.

[1]: http://varlamov.ru/1637956.html

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#28
post #19

who released this info and for what reasons exactly will always be the question that i think will never be answered, but lets not forget that information itself seems to be legit. Iceland's PM resignation confirms that, at least partially. Everyone knows that Russia is corrupt up to the top. How? Pretty much every top politician (and their families) in russia own far more than can be purchased on a state salary. Spok…

Agree, I'd be inclined to think it is either a hacker, or an insider, or a US agency. Putin was at the top of the revelations, even if the news was unsurprising (but like the Snowden documents, it's not because we all suspected it that the proof is any less valuable). If the guy who did it is not US authorities, I would not not sleep well if I was him. The police in London regularly picks up the hung or poisoned bodi…

> The police in London regularly picks up the hung or poisoned bodies of those who dared to attack or expose Putin...

Presumably you are talking about Roberto Calvi and Alexander Litvinenko.

While two murders that could be linked to the Russian state are two too many, describing this as 'regularly' seems a bit of a stretch.

That being said, I agree that Putin is near the top of my "people who should not be messed with" list.

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#29
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, I'd be inclined to think it is either a hacker, or an insider, or a US agency. Putin was at the top of the revelations, even if the news was unsurprising (but like the Snowden documents, it's not because we all suspected it that the proof is any less valuable). If the guy who did it is not US authorities, I would not not sleep well if I was him. The police in London regularly picks up the hung or poisoned bodi…

Top 10 countries that offer financial secrecy, according to the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35998801 Switzerland Hong Kong USA Singapore The Cayman Islands Luxembourg Lebanon Germany Bahrain United Arab Emirates Panama seems to be down at the low-rent end of the financial secrecy market. So no - the OP is not only not plausible, but raises more questions than it answers. Practically, I'd expect a Russian…

If that happens, I'd expect that in France or Italy the heads would roll by dozens.

Personally I am a libertarian. I am concerned by the death of privacy and the increasing overreach of governments. I don't really see this drive toward transparency and bullying of countries offering financial secrecy as a good thing.

I have seen or heard of many people who have gone through WW2 and have hidden money in Switzerland. Not to hide money from the taxman. But because they have seen how the governments can easily turn against their citizens and decided they needed a plan B. This concept of "nowhere to hide" is a bit concerning.

Re: Are the Russians Actually Behind the Panama Papers?

#30
post #28
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, I'd be inclined to think it is either a hacker, or an insider, or a US agency. Putin was at the top of the revelations, even if the news was unsurprising (but like the Snowden documents, it's not because we all suspected it that the proof is any less valuable). If the guy who did it is not US authorities, I would not not sleep well if I was him. The police in London regularly picks up the hung or poisoned bodi…

> The police in London regularly picks up the hung or poisoned bodies of those who dared to attack or expose Putin... Presumably you are talking about Roberto Calvi and Alexander Litvinenko. While two murders that could be linked to the Russian state are two too many, describing this as 'regularly' seems a bit of a stretch. That being said, I agree that Putin is near the top of my "people who should not be messed wit…

I think you meant Boris Berezovsky instead of Calvi.

There is also Mikhail Lesin in the US.

And these are the ones we know about...

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