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MathML is a failed web standard

peterkrautzberger.org

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Re: MathML is a failed web standard

#41

Post by 1ris »

CaliforniaKarl wrote: post #3

Blargh. It annoys me that MathML was even a thing. We've already had a perfectly-fine and widely-used markup language for mathematical formulae; it's called TeX. Ideally, I'd prefer that HTML5 include a tag, or something similar, that takes TeX as input and produces formatted output. A side benefit would mean that every browser, and every system, in the world would have TeX installed! At least MathJax can take TeX as…

TeX is not a markup-language. It's a (actually two) turing-complete, proprietary (not defined by anything than it's implementation) programming language.

Having a context-free representation is IMHO a necessity for processing untrusted inputs (e.g. webpages). It also makes it a way faster.

Re: MathML is a failed web standard

#43

Post by stshine »

pcwalton wrote: post #21
CaliforniaKarl wrote: post #3

Blargh. It annoys me that MathML was even a thing. We've already had a perfectly-fine and widely-used markup language for mathematical formulae; it's called TeX. Ideally, I'd prefer that HTML5 include a tag, or something similar, that takes TeX as input and produces formatted output. A side benefit would mean that every browser, and every system, in the world would have TeX installed! At least MathJax can take TeX as…

> A side benefit would mean that every browser, and every system, in the world would have TeX installed! TeX doesn't have dynamic reflow, is defined by a macro system that involves essentially monkey patching the parser as it goes, lacks anything resembling a DOM, wasn't designed with Unicode or internationalization in mind, is completely unparallelizable, doesn't interoperate with CSS, has its own concept of block a…

Thanks, now I know I don't need to spend time to study the layout system of TeX.

Re: MathML is a failed web standard

#44

Post by StreamBright »

1ris wrote: post #41
CaliforniaKarl wrote: post #3

Blargh. It annoys me that MathML was even a thing. We've already had a perfectly-fine and widely-used markup language for mathematical formulae; it's called TeX. Ideally, I'd prefer that HTML5 include a tag, or something similar, that takes TeX as input and produces formatted output. A side benefit would mean that every browser, and every system, in the world would have TeX installed! At least MathJax can take TeX as…

TeX is not a markup-language. It's a (actually two) turing-complete, proprietary (not defined by anything than it's implementation) programming language. Having a context-free representation is IMHO a necessity for processing untrusted inputs (e.g. webpages). It also makes it a way faster.

I don't think that proprietary applies here.

proprietary adjective 1. relating to an owner or ownership.

2.(of a product) marketed under and protected by a registered trade name.

None of the above is true to TeX. What am I missing?

Re: MathML is a failed web standard

#46

Post by majewsky »

asdfaoeu wrote: post #9
spicyj wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TeX is analogous to Presentation MathML but doesn't solve the accessibility concerns because the semantic intent of the TeX source isn't always clear. (How do you read a \phantom{}? Or how can you know that "\left( 7 \atop 3 \right)" should be read as "7 choose 3"?)

The same way a sighted person does?

The problem is that mathematical notations can vary from topic to topic, from university to university, even from office to office inside a university department, even within the same lecture of a single professor. (Been there: "Notation will be different in this chapter since I've copied it from another author's paper.")

Re: MathML is a failed web standard

#47

Post by evincarofautumn »

spicyj wrote: post #10
asdfaoeu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way a sighted person does?

Yes, you could try to build algorithms that turn that markup into semantic meaning but now we're almost talking about computer vision. I don't think a solution like that is likely to ever work reliably, and it's better to encode the semantic meaning so that it doesn't need to be re-derived.

I think they meant that a person needs to interpret “two numbers arranged vertically between parentheses” according to context, regardless of whether they’re sighted.

Having more semantic information in that scenario would help the sighted just as much as the visually impaired—imagine hovering over an unfamiliar notation with your mouse and seeing it explained.

Re: MathML is a failed web standard

#48

Post by 1ris »

StreamBright wrote: post #44
1ris wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TeX is not a markup-language. It's a (actually two) turing-complete, proprietary (not defined by anything than it's implementation) programming language. Having a context-free representation is IMHO a necessity for processing untrusted inputs (e.g. webpages). It also makes it a way faster.

I don't think that proprietary applies here. proprietary adjective 1. relating to an owner or ownership. 2.(of a product) marketed under and protected by a registered trade name. None of the above is true to TeX. What am I missing?

In a more liberal sense the opposite of "open standard".

Re: MathML is a failed web standard

#49

Post by pavlov »

therealmarv wrote: post #11

Many standards have failed for the web. Anybody remember VRML? Actually I like it that we have not a broad big big standard which includes MathML which only ~0,1% of people care about in the browser. MathML can stand on its own (encapsulated with JS like PDFs in Firefox) or you can abandon it entirely. You are free to choose. It's the best way for everybody.

Actually I like it that we have not a broad big big standard which includes MathML which only ~0,1% of people care about in the browser.

Did you read the article? That's exactly what we have right now. The author's #1 complaint is that MathML is currently a part of HTML5.

He would like it to be removed from the HTML standard so that MathML could evolve on its own, rather than being constrained by its status as a web standard that's not actually implemented by browsers.

Re: MathML is a failed web standard

#50

Post by deepnet »

therealmarv wrote: post #11

Many standards have failed for the web. Anybody remember VRML? Actually I like it that we have not a broad big big standard which includes MathML which only ~0,1% of people care about in the browser. MathML can stand on its own (encapsulated with JS like PDFs in Firefox) or you can abandon it entirely. You are free to choose. It's the best way for everybody.

I used VRML to render in realtime, 1994-99, using low end video game cards (overclocked) that output hi-res video, full screen Cosmo Player, record live to tape.

Retakes were trivial, frame rates were 100fps interlaced to video, silky movement - could even take live camera direction.

Otherwise rendering took weeks and most of the budget, mostly contracted for theatre backdrops & live VJing. IMHO VRML died because it was pre open source, Cosmo was locked up tight and never updated.

Realtime in browser 3D from 1994 to 1999, proto-machinima, fun times.

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