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Classism in America

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Re: Classism in America

#211

Post by IkmoIkmo »

SudoNhim wrote: post #98
zeveb wrote: post #32

Very interesting thought, that colleges' purpose is to acculturate one into a certain culture. That would explain why collegiate athletics are so important: because people of a particular college's culture place importance on chasing after balls on grassy fields, it's important for colleges to acculturate their students to watching people chase after balls on grassy fields. I'm not saying that sarcastically — as much…

> That's precisely the problem with race in America: race is a decent first-order approximation of class, with all the bad that entails. Not really. I mean in my state (WA), 48% of people below the poverty line are white, 18% are hispanic, 14% are asian, 14% are black. Sure some approximations of some classes are heavily involved with race, but if you're discussing class dynamics in general race isn't a necessary dis…

> I mean in my state (WA), 48% of people below the poverty line are white, 18% are hispanic, 14% are asian, 14% are black.

You may just be getting numbers back based on the ethnicity that predominantly lives in your state.

Look at relative poverty numbers. i.e., of the number of people who are of ethnicity X, how many are poor? I think you'll surely find a correlation that OP describes as a decent first-order approximation.

For example: white 9%, hispanic 18%, black 37%. That's 2x and 4x more likely to be poor vs white depending on if you're hispanic or black.

[0] http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceeth...

Re: Classism in America

#212

Post by Spooky23 »

I moved from NYC to the rural reaches of upstate New York when I was 11. My family and folks I hung out had a mixed of "Lunged Idland", Brooklyn and Irish accents. Nobody had any idea what I was saying for several months after moving, with good reason.

The accent still pops out once in awhile, usually when I'm tired or agitated. Some folks find it grating or aggressive. I just tell them to screw off.

Re: Classism in America

#213

Post by IkmoIkmo »

RodericDay wrote: post #16

It's a bit disturbing to me how enthusiastically the SlaterStarCodex crowd latches onto this "fuck you, got mine" essay, gushing with praise and admiration about telling it like it is. The entire thing is a rationalization for the thinking illustrated in these quotes: > I feel the need for a disclaimer of sorts. I am writing about class and some of the injustices of classism, but I do not particularly pretend to posi…

Can people at least leave some form of criticism when downvoting?

Re: Classism in America

#214

Post by CuriouslyC »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #99
zeveb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

Exactly. As a southerner, I have an accent, but I also don't answer important questions fast. IOW, I pause a beat to collect my thoughts. People tend to think this too is a sign of "stupid". Really, it's just I don't like to be wrong. I'd rather be slow up front and be right, than fast up front and be wrong. However, our development culture tends to think everything needs to happen as fast as possible (the whole twit…

Just a useful trick, you can have the best of both worlds if you respond with "well, it depends", play up a dramatic pause, and follow with "on one hand..." and finish with a counter-point. It seems to result in a less argumentative response when people disagree as well.

Re: Classism in America

#215

Post by teacup50 »

coldtea wrote: post #183
rgrieselhuber wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I'd wager that the rural folk would be fine if all the city dwellers disappeared, and that the opposite is not true.

Food wise maybe. But do you think your medicine, qualified doctors, medical equipment, internet, computers you use, movies and tv series you watch, trucks you drive and tons of other things besides grow on trees? (Not to mention farming subsidies)

Cities really, truly, do not have a monopoly on the production of those things.

Re: Classism in America

#216

Post by CuriouslyC »

100k wrote: post #83
jff wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget "flyover states", to be uttered in the same tone of disgust as "southerner"!

I got a bit of that when I moved to SF. It's harder to pin Midwesterners down by accent, though (city folks, anyway).

I've met a few glib midwesterners that still had that characteristic way of pronouncing "roots".

Re: Classism in America

#217

Post by cmurf »

JPKab wrote: post #11

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers h…

Stereotypes. They exist for a reason, it's just that we think they are true more often than they are, so we end up making the wrong choice much of the time.

Most elite Northerner whites are just as insulated as they think Southerners are, when it comes to traveling within their own country. In fact they typically know jack shit about Southern culture. There was a time when Southern accents were considered deliberately slow, enunciated, cultured. Yes, at that time whites were at the top of the class food chain, and yes most of that white privilege was racist or at least depended on it. But the accent is orthogonal to racism. We've just come to associate one with the other, using a stereotype.

Another stereotype is white Northerners will pretty much assume white Southerners, identified as such by their drawl, may be a racist.

Assumptions are traps.

Re: Classism in America

#218

Post by teacup50 »

henrikschroder wrote: post #203
paulsutter wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible that your friends are actually right? How did you gain this ability they lack, to detect precisely who is upper-middle class? You say class isn't about money, and I suppose it shouldn't be. Maybe they think class is about something even worse than money and they don't want any part of it. > Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely…

> Is it possible that your friends are actually right? In being oblivious to a well-documented phenomenon? That's not very likely. Obliviousness to class is a class marker for middle class. Major values of the middle class are equal opportunity and meritocracy, but existing class structures prevent that, so the middle class stick their heads in the ground and pretend that the upper classes have earned their position…

That is ... remarkably classist of you.

Re: Classism in America

#219

Post by WalterBright »

CPLX wrote: post #198
WalterBright wrote: post #133

I once went out to lunch at a modest restaurant with a couple friends, one from a wealthy eastern family and one from poverty. The former was dressed like a slob, the latter in a nice suit. I was fascinated how the former exuded class in how he comfortably dealt with the waiter and the wine list, etc., while the latter clearly was desperately trying to do that and failing. The difference was apparent even in how they…

The Wire, which of course is an absolutely excellent longform meditation on class, has a couple really great scenes illustrating this exact thing: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xhhJVYK4nvQ http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WmGemNT7urY

For other good (albeit fictional) accounts of social class, there's "Gone With The Wind's" treatment of Rhett Butler by southern society, and "The Blue Max's" treatment of Bruno Stachel who rises from being an innkeeper's son to a role formerly reserved only for the nobility. (Neither is about money, but manners and behavior.)

Re: Classism in America

#220

Post by jklp »

flashman wrote: post #176
jamiepenney wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do the same thing. There's a particular way of speaking in the North of New Zealand that is associated with poor Maori - when I'm talking to my dad's family, I switch back to talking like that. I mask it in almost all other situations, but it's caught a few friends out at times. One told me it was like talking to a completely different person. My dad is a tradesperson, and his influence is the one thing I have neve…

Sounds like you're internalizing a really complicated situation in your head, bro.

In case people think you're being dismissive to the parent, this was a quote from a popular "drink driving" ad which ran in New Zealand - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtWirGxV7Q8
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