How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution • Hacker News Board

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#11

Post by kabdib » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:51 PM UTC

nyolfen wrote: post #7

fweespee_ch wrote: post #4

> In Gartenlaub’s case, the government made sealed filings, so neither the defense nor the public was able to see them. Based on the secret filings, the judge held that the government had shown probable cause that the house to be searched belonged to “an agent of a foreign power” or a spy. > “The government is increasingly using national security tools to investigate domestic criminal cases, bypassing key constituti…

this sounds like a good argument for using whole disk encryption to prevent tampering if nothing else

They can just substitute a whole fake disk. It's not like actual evidence bothers them. There is absolutely no down-side to the government lying; at the end of the day, they get to go home no matter what.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#12

Post by ekianjo » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:56 PM UTC

nxzero wrote: post #9

ekianjo wrote: post #2

> In Gartenlaub’s case, the government made sealed filings, so neither the defense nor the public was able to see them. Based on the secret filings, the judge held that the government had shown probable cause that the house to be searched belonged to “an agent of a foreign power." That's typically what you read about foreign police states.

Might seem repeative or unwarrented, but to me, it's very clear that the... US is a police state.

More like, it has become like that. Because of complete disregard/disrespect for the US constitution. The constitution had numerous safeguards to restrict abuse of power, but the Federal Government is completely sitting on it.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#13

Post by tptacek » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:57 PM UTC

mholt wrote: post #8

The main problem I see is this: > His attorney said his defense was hampered by an inability to obtain basic information about how the evidence was obtained and on what specific grounds the warrant was issued. Authorities can obtain secret warrants and conduct ordinary criminal investigations with it, conveniently withholding the evidence from the defense attorney on the grounds that it was obtained under FISA. So no…

Was any evidence withheld here? Or is it instead the case that the original FISA warrant was withheld (being part of a complicated counterespionage case), and the defense feels that given the full warrant, they might be able to defeat the search and have the CP evidence excluded?

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#14

Post by sneak » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:59 PM UTC

Tell me again why well-off American programmers continue living in that country without the most basic of human rights?

It's time to go. You can still access us-east-1 from the civilized bits of Europe, you know.

It has now been between 2 and 10 years since the time where it became totally unreasonable to continue living there while other options are available to you.

Don't wait until the trumped-up federal charges. Move now.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#15

Post by sneak » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 5:03 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #10

ekianjo wrote: post #2

> In Gartenlaub’s case, the government made sealed filings, so neither the defense nor the public was able to see them. Based on the secret filings, the judge held that the government had shown probable cause that the house to be searched belonged to “an agent of a foreign power." That's typically what you read about foreign police states.

It is, but isn't it also the case that secret court filings are as old as the US courts? How else would espionage prosecutions work? Similarly, how would complicated organized crime investigations work without secrecy? Isn't the alternative that prosecutors get exactly one bite at the apple, and if they're wrong, the target of the investigation is tipped off? The case that ultimately appears before the court, of cour…

For espionage, your argument makes a little bit of sense.

When they cross over into non-espionage routine prosecutions, this stuff should get thrown the fuck out.

A warrant that can't be challenged for legality by the accused is a clear denial of due process.

Also, scroll down the thread. The CP prosecution was used as a stick to further their espionage prosecution for which it turns out the guy was innocent.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#16

Post by ekianjo » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 5:03 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #10

ekianjo wrote: post #2

> In Gartenlaub’s case, the government made sealed filings, so neither the defense nor the public was able to see them. Based on the secret filings, the judge held that the government had shown probable cause that the house to be searched belonged to “an agent of a foreign power." That's typically what you read about foreign police states.

It is, but isn't it also the case that secret court filings are as old as the US courts? How else would espionage prosecutions work? Similarly, how would complicated organized crime investigations work without secrecy? Isn't the alternative that prosecutors get exactly one bite at the apple, and if they're wrong, the target of the investigation is tipped off? The case that ultimately appears before the court, of cour…

> Similarly, how would complicated organized crime investigations work without secrecy?

Secrecy is one thing, however the key issue here is the lack of civilian oversight. The whole FISA system is behind closed doors without any third party representative to confirm the lawfulness of investigations.

That's what makes a difference between police state methods and due process: the fact that there is somehow some decentralization of responsibilities.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#17

Post by tremon » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #13

mholt wrote: post #8

The main problem I see is this: > His attorney said his defense was hampered by an inability to obtain basic information about how the evidence was obtained and on what specific grounds the warrant was issued. Authorities can obtain secret warrants and conduct ordinary criminal investigations with it, conveniently withholding the evidence from the defense attorney on the grounds that it was obtained under FISA. So no…

Was any evidence withheld here? Or is it instead the case that the original FISA warrant was withheld (being part of a complicated counterespionage case), and the defense feels that given the full warrant, they might be able to defeat the search and have the CP evidence excluded?

That doesn't matter. If the government can't prove how it obtained the evidence, it also can't prove that it didn't manufacture said "evidence".

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#18

Post by X86BSD » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #12

nxzero wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might seem repeative or unwarrented, but to me, it's very clear that the... US is a police state.

More like, it has become like that. Because of complete disregard/disrespect for the US constitution. The constitution had numerous safeguards to restrict abuse of power, but the Federal Government is completely sitting on it.

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain — that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#19

Post by ekianjo » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 5:06 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #14

Tell me again why well-off American programmers continue living in that country without the most basic of human rights? It's time to go. You can still access us-east-1 from the civilized bits of Europe, you know. It has now been between 2 and 10 years since the time where it became totally unreasonable to continue living there while other options are available to you. Don't wait until the trumped-up federal charges.…

> Tell me again why well-off American programmers continue living in that country without the most basic of human rights?

One thing to keep in mind if you move out of the US is that you will be subject to double-taxation as a US citizen. So technically if you want to reject the system you need to leave the country and lose the passport.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#20

Post by x3n0ph3n3 » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 5:06 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #14

Tell me again why well-off American programmers continue living in that country without the most basic of human rights? It's time to go. You can still access us-east-1 from the civilized bits of Europe, you know. It has now been between 2 and 10 years since the time where it became totally unreasonable to continue living there while other options are available to you. Don't wait until the trumped-up federal charges.…

I honestly don't see any other "free" countries. Most lack a fundamental freedom of speech or a right to bear arms. Where is this utopia of freedom you think exists? As someone who's ancestors helped fight for and found this nation, it's hard for me to just give up on it.