My Biggest Regret as a Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#361

Post by cookiecaper » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:44 PM UTC

mordocai wrote: post #276

ulkesh wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that materialistic thinking and living certainly contributes to lack of savings/retirement assets. But so does simply having a family, especially as a single parent or when the spouse doesn't work. You might say "well, the spouse can go work," but it's rarely that simple considering the costs of child care and how it may weigh on the spouse's potential salary. Then factor in if the spouse can even get a highe…

My spouse doesn't work. I'm nearly 25 and on/above target on my 401k savings and am slowly gaining money in regular savings accounts too. I made some bad decisions with debt a few years ago or I'd be even farther ahead. I live in Missouri though, which has pretty low cost of living.

I appreciate your intention, but I don't think you can really lecture anyone on retirement savings when you're in your 20s. I'm in my 20s myself and wouldn't do it. Check back in 30 years -- maybe you'll have gotten lucky and not had any major financial drains, or maybe you won't've.

People in my family had hundreds of ks saved up for retirement and have lost it all in their 50s. Now they're in their 60s and have no foreseeable path to retirement. Unexpected events happen.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#362

Post by ryandrake » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:44 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #356

kdamken wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True - it's impossible to know every detail of his situation. That's why I put the disclaimer about his health. Regardless of those things though, for most people making a decent salary, they can put themselves in a good position for most scenarios by: - Saving as much as they can of what they're earning. Ideally at least 50% - Avoiding debt - Investing their money in low cost index funds

Much easier said than done, especially when you have children.

Or student loans, or alimony obligations, or sick parents to house and take care of, or any number of legitimate reasons why normal people don't tend to save 50% of their income.

My guess is the "ISO Standard Ideal Saver" whose entire income is disposable, has perfect health, no dependents, no hobbies, no debt or other obligations, etc. is the exception, not the rule.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#363

Post by baldfat » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:48 PM UTC

s_ngularity wrote: post #319

baldfat wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost TL:DR: There was no road less traveled by they were equally the same, but he fooled himself into think he made a special choice. Just some poetry discussion. "The Road Not Taken" is considered the most misunderstood and misinterpreted poem. (It was great to make freshmen tackle this poem in freshmen Theology Class. Then we went on to most misinterpreted scripture verse :) So, in t…

Out of curiosity, what did your instructor consider the most misinterpreted scripture verse?

Well I got to be the instructor for that day's class :)

My favorite is short example:

In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. Matt. 5:45 (NLT)

Rain in a semi-arid agriculture area was a good thing. People read it and think God sends bad things to also. So when something bad happens people will quote this verse.

I also like the Prodigal Son (It really is the Parable of the Older Brother). People miss the main point and think it is about bad children coming back to the Father (Its a side point) The main point is the Older Brother was mad that the Father was nice to the bad son.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#364

Post by markbnj » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:49 PM UTC

As a working software developer at age 55 I appreciate some of what the author is saying. Your salary peaks. Your upward mobility peaks. People who move into leadership positions quickly pass you in terms of material assets. All true. When has it ever not been true? There's something else that is true: not everyone is suited to be a leader, and there are relatively fewer positions for leaders compared to followers. Ultimately you have try to be happy doing something to put food on the table. Perhaps if the author was a leader he would not have passed up those opportunities. Something inside would have nudged him in that direction, rather than in the safe direction of practicing what he already knew how to do. Ultimately, the piece just reads like the regret of a mature person looking backward at the choices he's made. I've made some I regret as well, and if I can learn from them that's great. But pining after a re-do is not the path to a happy existence, at least for me.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#365

Post by cookiecaper » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:51 PM UTC

wtbob wrote: post #80

forgottenacc56 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JavaScript is actually an incredibly flexible and effective language.

> JavaScript is actually an incredibly flexible and effective language. == vs === No integers. Assignment is declaration. Prototypes. Curly brackets & semicolons. Semicolon insertion. It may be flexible (in the sense that an Alfa Romeo driven into a telephone pole at 120 mph is flexible), but it sure as heck ain't effective. JavaScript is the great shame of the computing industry: that it exists, and that it is used,…

Thank you for this post. We have a really bad habit of chasing "cutting edge" fads as an industry. It must come from the tendency of programmers to burn out and bow out, which exacerbates the tendency of young bucks to lack any respect for their elders. Software dev is still a very immature industry.

I respect Brendan Eich a great deal and I truly appreciate what he did for NetScape in 1995 by introducing JavaScript. What I don't appreciate is that we decided to extrapolate that madly-rushed, designed-and-implemented-in-less-than-a-week-of-all-nighters language not only into the default client side language for the web for the last 2 decades, but we have also allowed very badly informed people to start using it for server-side applications.

There has to be a way to bring order to this chaos. Any ideas?

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#366

Post by zaphodX » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:51 PM UTC

pier25 wrote: post #258

raducu wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the authors frustration, and it's not really about money as some here believe. In my 6 jobs as a programmer I've also seen so many incompetent managers, so much time wasted, so much bullshit, so much backstabbing and narcissists galore. But the problem is not really about THEM managers, but about ME and my maladaptive cognitive schemas (commonly known to everybody as lack of social skills, subjugation to…

Spot on. The problem is being able to influence things in a creative way. https://youtu.be/u6XAPnuFjJc I'd rather be the captain of my small pirate ship than a cog in giant battleship. But I'm in my mid 30s now, maybe that will change when I get to 40.

I am in my early 40s, and I thought 40s would be different as I will have less home pressures, and more time to myself. Also, I will be mature to take on challenges.

Doesn't work that way. Please start today.. don't hope for a things changing in 40s as it will come to your very very fast.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#367

Post by cableshaft » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:53 PM UTC

_gi12 wrote: post #263

okyup wrote: post #140

I agree that programming is a dead end job. It's popular and relatively easy. It doesn't require any special skills. Anyone with an average IQ can learn it. There's low cost and barrier of entry to getting started. It's fun and addicting when you're a kid. Then you get trapped and it becomes monotonous. There's only so good you can get at programming. Beyond that, most of your time is spent on debugging trivial issue…

You've described exactly how I feel. I've only be at this game for 4 years and I'm already looking for a way out. Programming is fun in the way that doing drugs is fun; it's addicting and provides a quick high, but at the cost of staring into a computer screen for weeks on end with little to no interaction with other people aside from meetings (which only exist so that your superiors can tell you which widget to cran…

The 'everything you build as a developer is extremely temporary' was something I had to learn over the years. I used to make video games, and I grew up being able to play my old games no problem, but now nothing is physical, everything is sandboxed in an app store (or intrinsically glued into a website) and disappears the instant the company disappears, or moves on to a new project, unless you work on a major title.

And even if that weren't the problem, there's such a firehose of games getting released constantly that people no longer value them, and move on to the next game after barely spending any time with the existing one, unless you intentionally manipulate their psychology with some free to play garbage.

That's part of the reason why I now feel so drawn to board games, as they at least still have physical boxes that can last for decades.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#368

Post by okyup » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:58 PM UTC

_gi12 wrote: post #263

okyup wrote: post #140

I agree that programming is a dead end job. It's popular and relatively easy. It doesn't require any special skills. Anyone with an average IQ can learn it. There's low cost and barrier of entry to getting started. It's fun and addicting when you're a kid. Then you get trapped and it becomes monotonous. There's only so good you can get at programming. Beyond that, most of your time is spent on debugging trivial issue…

You've described exactly how I feel. I've only be at this game for 4 years and I'm already looking for a way out. Programming is fun in the way that doing drugs is fun; it's addicting and provides a quick high, but at the cost of staring into a computer screen for weeks on end with little to no interaction with other people aside from meetings (which only exist so that your superiors can tell you which widget to cran…

It sounds like we're in similar positions. Programming is indeed a very cushy job. I almost got sucked in and became lazy and dependent on it (and maybe will yet, but hopefully not). It's a dangerous game.

I don't want to end up like my older professional peers in 10, 20, or 30 years. Most of them are very smart people, but in a way pathetic at the same time.

On the positive side, we should be able to leverage the cushiness for our own benefit. I'm planning to travel and work part time this summer while continuing to work my regular job remotely. I've enjoyed the little farm and construction work I've done in the past and would like to do more. Not only do I feel healthier when I spend more time away from technology, but it's much more enriching.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#369

Post by nocman » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 5:00 PM UTC

aantix wrote: post #357

nocman wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gag me with an entire place setting. Might as well add "Rock Star" to the list of meaningless drivel. There is absolutely nothing wrong with describing yourself as a "programmer" when that is indeed what you've been doing for the last 30 years. The world needs less people spewing streams of hype to describe their own self importance, not more.

If someone has been developing for 30+ years, learning to best describe their track record, position their skill set, and demand a premium for the time isn't hype. It's merely capitalizing on their legacy. There is an issue with calling yourself a "programmer" when one of his main complaints is the lack of monetary return on his career. Don't choose a commodity title if you want a higher than average return on your t…

I never said "demanding a premium for their time" was hype. I said having to call yourself a "Software Engineer" or "Architect" instead of a programmer was hype, and I still think it is.

I'd personally rather have someone show me the real work they've done to convince me that they knew what they were doing, rather than giving themselves a meaningless title to convince me how good they are.

There are plenty of "Software Engineers" and "Architects" out there that couldn't program their way out of a wet paper sack.

Fundamentally our disagreement is on the importance of the title. Yes, I will concede that there are some people who will be impressed by it, and maybe even be a bit more likely to hire you because of it.

I just don't think that's a good thing.

I know too many people who have been burned by others who used such language, who actually didn't know what they were doing, and as a consequence others who did know what they were doing lost their jobs, and the company spent millions to try to recover, or just plain went out of business.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#370

Post by abawany » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 5:01 PM UTC

fibonachos wrote: post #256

WesleyJohnson wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working harder doesn't always mean working more hours. After 8 hours sitting at a desk programming, sometimes I realize how lucky I am to not have to hand-load semis all day in a blistering hot distribution center. And then sometimes, after a particularly grueling programming session working on the same bug for 8 hours, I yearn for a day of work where I can shut my brain off and chuck some boxes. 'Harder' is subjecti…

Having chucked boxes in my youth, and currently a programmer, I can relate. As my skills have improved over the years it doesn't happen as much, but there are still those moments where standing in the back of a 52' trailer, calling off tags, and making tidy stacks of electronics doesn't sound so bad. As mindless as work like that tends to be, there is a kind of zen quality to it. I think the trick now is to find a ho…

I have an alternate point of view: my desire to remain engaged in an interesting and problem is high so that anything resembling monotony quickly bores and frustrates me. I question what I had done wrong in a previous life to be condemned to a latter day Sysiphian punishment. This is primarily why I rail hard against processes - they appear as manifestly unjust punishment.

In my opinion, our brains have a way of painting the bad old days in a nostalgic light. I would posit that if you were forced by circumstances to chuck boxes for 8 hours a day with company-specified arrival and departure times plus company-specified breaks, you would not relish it. But that's just my opinion.