WhatsApp's Signal Protocol integration is now complete • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp's Signal Protocol integration is now complete

#351

Post by rakoo » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 1:40 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #338

tptacek wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're describing Noise. WhatsApp uses Noise Pipes, which is one of many instances of the Noise framework. You're right that it's not a good idea for generalists to pick up Noise and go to town with it. Noise isn't misuse-proof.

> You're right that it's not a good idea for generalists to pick up Noise and go to town with it. Noise isn't misuse-proof. Nor is SSL. Couldn't an opinionated SSL library (supporting exactly one protocol version, one cipher only, etc) provide the same simplicity of use while remaining interoperable and reusing an already-validated protocol?

FYI there is an RFC (currently a draft) for a suite of parameters considered secure for some time, ie some kind of LTS: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gutmann-tls-lts-02

The idea is more or less what you want, hardcode some known-good configuration for servers that can't or won't be upgraded every other month.

Re: WhatsApp's Signal Protocol integration is now complete

#352

Post by Chris2048 » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 1:41 PM UTC

owenversteeg wrote: post #49

This is insanely cool. For everyone (very rightfully) worried about the PATRIOT act, the NSA, etc., etc. this is absolutely huge. One BILLION people just got their messages encrypted. Facebook was under no obligation to do this; for the vast majority of tech history the messages sent by 99% of people were very insecure, and when the tech giants responsible were asked their response was "ehh". This suddenly cuts into…

> For everyone worried about the PATRIOT act, the NSA

Does this actually protect you? If data goes through US FB servers, don't the NSA have access?

Re: WhatsApp's Signal Protocol integration is now complete

#353

Post by rem1313 » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:00 PM UTC

What about system-level notifications? They go via Apple/Google and include message content. If those are not encrypted, then this sort of defeats the purpose...

Re: WhatsApp's Signal Protocol integration is now complete

#354

Post by Johnny_Brahms » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:00 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #352

owenversteeg wrote: post #49

This is insanely cool. For everyone (very rightfully) worried about the PATRIOT act, the NSA, etc., etc. this is absolutely huge. One BILLION people just got their messages encrypted. Facebook was under no obligation to do this; for the vast majority of tech history the messages sent by 99% of people were very insecure, and when the tech giants responsible were asked their response was "ehh". This suddenly cuts into…

> For everyone worried about the PATRIOT act, the NSA Does this actually protect you? If data goes through US FB servers, don't the NSA have access?

To the metadata and ciphertext, sure. Still better than metadata AND data.

Re: WhatsApp's Signal Protocol integration is now complete

#355

Post by tptacek » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

rakoo wrote: post #351

lmm wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're right that it's not a good idea for generalists to pick up Noise and go to town with it. Noise isn't misuse-proof. Nor is SSL. Couldn't an opinionated SSL library (supporting exactly one protocol version, one cipher only, etc) provide the same simplicity of use while remaining interoperable and reusing an already-validated protocol?

FYI there is an RFC (currently a draft) for a suite of parameters considered secure for some time, ie some kind of LTS: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gutmann-tls-lts-02 The idea is more or less what you want, hardcode some known-good configuration for servers that can't or won't be upgraded every other month.

This is less a practical draft and more a political statement about the author's dislike for TLS 1.3. In particular, it makes extensive modifications to the TLS protocol itself (it doesn't merely propose a limited set of safe parameters).

Re: WhatsApp's Signal Protocol integration is now complete

#356

Post by Chris2048 » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

Johnny_Brahms wrote: post #354

Chris2048 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For everyone worried about the PATRIOT act, the NSA Does this actually protect you? If data goes through US FB servers, don't the NSA have access?

To the metadata and ciphertext, sure. Still better than metadata AND data.

Where are the keys generated & stored? Is the APP openly audited?

Re: WhatsApp's Signal Protocol integration is now complete

#357

Post by taejo » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:53 PM UTC

cmdrfred wrote: post #283

Xeoncross wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could someone explain the benefit of the noise protocol? Some of us are not well-versed in the problems or attack vectors of modern crypto.

I'd be interested as well I'm building a chat system myself and I'm currently using AES (its web based and zero knowledge so I need a javascript implementation)

If you don't understand the difference between a block cipher and a secure transport you probably shouldn't be writing cryptographic software.

Re: WhatsApp's Signal Protocol integration is now complete

#358

Post by janinge » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 3:20 PM UTC

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #232

janinge wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not, or was not? Did this issue get rectified by Telegram?

No, they still use MTProto and not an AEAD construction.

I was referring to the padding attack. Did they patch this?

And are there any property of MTProto that makes it infeasible to replace AES IGE in a later revision of the protocol?

Re: WhatsApp's Signal Protocol integration is now complete

#359

Post by revkia » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:03 PM UTC

jamesdwilson wrote: post #295

feld wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iOS is not completely open source, so how do you know that Apple isn't scraping your screen or the iOS keyboard isn't sending your characters? Also, Apple's push messaging subsystem gets a copy of (most) of the message too so Apple could be doing evil things there too! OH NOES!

i agree! the full stack needs to be opened.

What about their hardware?

Re: WhatsApp's Signal Protocol integration is now complete

#360

Post by teaneedz » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 4:43 PM UTC

dave2000 wrote: post #348

teaneedz wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also wonder how Facebook will monetize WhatsApp with e2e now.

They'll monetize Facebook with the phone numbers they get from WhatsApp users.

That's kind of what I was fearing. Would love to see an official response from Moxie on the meta and contact data handling of WhatsApp's implementation.