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Classism in America

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Re: Classism in America

#31

It's a bit disturbing to me how enthusiastically the SlaterStarCodex crowd latches onto this "fuck you, got mine" essay, gushing with praise and admiration about telling it like it is. The entire thing is a rationalization for the thinking illustrated in these quotes: > I feel the need for a disclaimer of sorts. I am writing about class and some of the injustices of classism, but I do not particularly pretend to posi…

> The idea that "the Left" engages in "Orwellian double-think" with regards to class, is also pretty puzzling.

Heard any jokes or insults about Southerners lately? "Trump voters"? Etc.

Which isn't to say that anyone who identifies with leftism is doomed to infinite self-deception with regard to social class, but, most people would benefit from some reflection on how they feel about which groups of people and why.

Re: Classism in America

#32
Very interesting thought, that colleges' purpose is to acculturate one into a certain culture. That would explain why collegiate athletics are so important: because people of a particular college's culture place importance on chasing after balls on grassy fields, it's important for colleges to acculturate their students to watching people chase after balls on grassy fields. I'm not saying that sarcastically — as much as I personally have never understood the point collegiate athletics, it makes a lot of sense in this context.

I take issue with her desire to leave race out of the discussion. That's precisely the problem with race in America: race is a decent first-order approximation of class, with all the bad that entails. If we could address that head-on, if people didn't automatically assume that others of the same race are 'like them' and others of a different race are 'unlike them,' and not have those things be true, then racism would be a thing of the past — or, at least, no worse than the silliness one sees about redheads/gingers. The colour of one's skin has no more effect on one's worth as a human being than the colour of one's hair: the day that it's seen as no more important is the day racism is dead. But as long as race and class are conflated, that day won't come.

> The ban on smoking in restaurants – which, let me be clear, I am wildly in favor of, being someone who can't patronize a business with cigarette smoking in it

Can't? Given that tobacco smoke contains no allergens, methinks the mot juste would be 'won't.'

> I empathize when social classes not mine find themselves on the short end of the stick, such as in the above account of smoking regulations, but that doesn't mean I'd do anything to change that outcome. Like, "Wow, it must suck to have your class' norms so disrespected by a change in the law like that. Welp, I'm off to buy a burger in this now refreshingly smoke-free burger joint, and discuss with my class-peers how else we can change public policy to make it more support my class' norms – even, if necessary, at your class' norms' expense."

What was wrong with the previous policy, which meant that some places catered to the author's class and some places catered to other classes?

Re: Classism in America

#33
post #23
post #11

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers h…

Also being from the south (Kentucky, so not as far south perhaps), I see this as well. My approach is actually the inverse. Like racism or really any form of bigotry, I call it out when I see it and make it known this is _not_ ok. Very few HR departments are ok with bigotry of this sort. You shouldn't have to be ashamed of how you sound or where you're from. I do massively agree with you regarding people thinking sou…

"A cabbie asked me if I supported Donald Trump and told he we was surprised I didn't. He told me all Americans supported Trump. So I asked him if he was an IRA thug/terrorist, to which he naturally said no."

It's hardly reasonable to compare being a member of a terrorist organization to supporting the leading candidate of one of two major parties.

Consider just the sheer effort of participating in terrorism is far greater than voting.

Re: Classism in America

#34
post #11

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers h…

It's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c.

It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.

Re: Classism in America

#35
post #24

This is a very good article. In America, there is also an example where we "build up" the social class of some segment to compensate for our self-centered guilt. Take the example of the military service. The vast majority of people would rather be at the mall and let someone else fight and die for the country. But the "I support our troops" bumper sticker is everywhere, or maybe they sent ten bucks to Fisher House or…

FWIW, the Wounded Warrior Project is a sham of an organization, see: http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary... 59% of the money goes to actually helping vets, which is pretty crap. Here are a few more credible alternatives: http://bearingarms.com/four-charities-better-than-wounded-wa... I entirely agree with your observation however. Disclaimer: I'm a combat vet of OIF II from 03-04

Thanks for your observation. I have edited my answer to remove that and instead list two from the article you recommended.

Re: Classism in America

#36
post #32

Very interesting thought, that colleges' purpose is to acculturate one into a certain culture. That would explain why collegiate athletics are so important: because people of a particular college's culture place importance on chasing after balls on grassy fields, it's important for colleges to acculturate their students to watching people chase after balls on grassy fields. I'm not saying that sarcastically — as much…

while your points are true, its kind of the whole point of the article is 'economic' (and of course race) are first-order approximations of 'social' class but they are NOT the same thing, only approximately overlapping. Pretty much the whole point of the article.

Re: Classism in America

#37
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also being from the south (Kentucky, so not as far south perhaps), I see this as well. My approach is actually the inverse. Like racism or really any form of bigotry, I call it out when I see it and make it known this is _not_ ok. Very few HR departments are ok with bigotry of this sort. You shouldn't have to be ashamed of how you sound or where you're from. I do massively agree with you regarding people thinking sou…

"A cabbie asked me if I supported Donald Trump and told he we was surprised I didn't. He told me all Americans supported Trump. So I asked him if he was an IRA thug/terrorist, to which he naturally said no." It's hardly reasonable to compare being a member of a terrorist organization to supporting the leading candidate of one of two major parties. Consider just the sheer effort of participating in terrorism is far gr…

Not only unreasonable, but also fairly unwise to be asking a Belfast cab driver if he's a member of the IRA.

Re: Classism in America

#38

It's a bit disturbing to me how enthusiastically the SlaterStarCodex crowd latches onto this "fuck you, got mine" essay, gushing with praise and admiration about telling it like it is. The entire thing is a rationalization for the thinking illustrated in these quotes: > I feel the need for a disclaimer of sorts. I am writing about class and some of the injustices of classism, but I do not particularly pretend to posi…

> The idea that "the Left" engages in "Orwellian double-think" with regards to class, is also pretty puzzling. Heard any jokes or insults about Southerners lately? "Trump voters"? Etc. Which isn't to say that anyone who identifies with leftism is doomed to infinite self-deception with regard to social class, but, most people would benefit from some reflection on how they feel about which groups of people and why.

"John Oliver"-left (which is to say, center), may be cracking low-quality Trump-voter jokes.

"Jacobin Magazine"-left, which has a better claim to the mainstream title imo, is all about publicizing interesting and charitable analyses of the phenomenon.

edit: Down-voted into a post-freeze (again). Reply:

Yeah, it's a hairy topic. However, the author states that they had trouble finding left-leaning "books and other discussions [...] that really address that social classes are cultures", which honestly seems like they weren't trying very hard.

Re: Classism in America

#39
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much everyone in or from Scotland (true or not) does this to some degree.

For me, the Scottish accent is the hardest of the English accents for me to understand. I work with English speakers from New Zealand/Australia and India to the UK/Ireland. English and Scottish sayings/slang are my favorite. Southerns have some good sayings but they are not as enjoyable for me to hear, maybe because I used to them.

It's hard for lifts to understand as well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avp9aUkM5g0

Re: Classism in America

#40
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also being from the south (Kentucky, so not as far south perhaps), I see this as well. My approach is actually the inverse. Like racism or really any form of bigotry, I call it out when I see it and make it known this is _not_ ok. Very few HR departments are ok with bigotry of this sort. You shouldn't have to be ashamed of how you sound or where you're from. I do massively agree with you regarding people thinking sou…

"A cabbie asked me if I supported Donald Trump and told he we was surprised I didn't. He told me all Americans supported Trump. So I asked him if he was an IRA thug/terrorist, to which he naturally said no." It's hardly reasonable to compare being a member of a terrorist organization to supporting the leading candidate of one of two major parties. Consider just the sheer effort of participating in terrorism is far gr…

Trump is considered racist for wanting to secure the borders. Both parties leadership, made up of out of touch elites, have decided that illegal immigration is good for their interests, voters be damned. Dems need to have more people on gov assistance and the GOP wants cheap labor with no rights. I dislike Trump but if both sides are demonizing him then he is probably on the right track.
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