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Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

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Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#71

Post by gnaritas »

j15t wrote: post #49
gnaritas wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"? I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, so no.

You did say that because you said that using a Bitcoin mixer is equivalent to money laundering. On the Bitcoin network all transactions are public and can be linked to an individual. Without mixers it quite possible that the details of all of your financial transactions will be public.

No I didn't say that because...

> Are you saying you're 100% comfortable sharing the details of all financial transactions you're a part of with "the world"?

and

> using a Bitcoin mixer is equivalent to money laundering.

Are not equivalent statements.

> Without mixers it quite possible that the details of all of your financial transactions will be public.

Not true since you've forgotten the other option available to me; I don't have to use Bitcoin; you've presented a false dichotomy. I can simply choose not to use Bitcoin, consider mixing money laundering (that is after all its express intent, hiding the source of money), and still keep my financial transactions non public as they are today.

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#72

Post by zooko-zcash »

NobleSir wrote: post #8
ultramancool wrote: post #3

What's next? Well, true anonymity via zero knowledge proofs of course. https://z.cash/

A cool protocol, trusted setup though.

Here's what I wrote about that: https://z.cash/blog/snark-parameters.html

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#73

Post by CiPHPerCoder »

knughit wrote: post #4
ultramancool wrote: post #3

What's next? Well, true anonymity via zero knowledge proofs of course. https://z.cash/

Does z.cash prevent deanonymization via IP traffic analysis? Does it resist clusterization?

No, that's Tor's job.

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#74

Post by jneves »

zooko-zcash wrote: post #70
ultramancool wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a scam in the sense that it's basically a pump and dump game for the founders. Sure, many people will know it, but those who do will probably avoid it, it's those who don't who will buy it on markets and lose out when the founders dump.

Pump-and-dump is a major threat. Almost every cryptocurrency or related asset, including Bitcoin and Ethereum, has been vulnerable to pump-and-dump, and it is impossible to prevent. One way to try to deter pump-and-dump is to make it so that the founders don't have any sort of privileged position, but then how could you afford to do all of the work to create a solid, usable protocol? The Zcash team ( https://z.cash/t…

There's no incentive not to sell (by the contrary), meaning there's no long term ownership, which means that the system just temporarily avoids the financial incentives to pump-and-dump, doesn't remove them.

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#75

Post by d0lph »

castis wrote: post #64
d0lph wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weren't they seeking to achieve tax evasion, not privacy? Physical currencies are anonymous, and they are not widely seen as unethical.

Yes, physical currencies are anonymous. However, it doesn't seem very practical to hold onto the physical currency in the amount that these guys are hiding.

Reminds me of a joke, the 500 euro note was created so politicians only have to carry one suitcase on a plane.

Difficult but not impossible, you can easily carry $100,000 in $100 notes in a bag, and at most you would only need to carry a thousand or so.

As far as legally stashing cash, a large safe or gold would suffice.

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#76

Post by zooko-zcash »

jneves wrote: post #74
zooko-zcash wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pump-and-dump is a major threat. Almost every cryptocurrency or related asset, including Bitcoin and Ethereum, has been vulnerable to pump-and-dump, and it is impossible to prevent. One way to try to deter pump-and-dump is to make it so that the founders don't have any sort of privileged position, but then how could you afford to do all of the work to create a solid, usable protocol? The Zcash team ( https://z.cash/t…

There's no incentive not to sell (by the contrary), meaning there's no long term ownership, which means that the system just temporarily avoids the financial incentives to pump-and-dump, doesn't remove them.

If the Founders who get the 10% Founders Reward sell their Zcash (or some of it) before the four years of the Founders Reward has run its course, then that is not pump-and-dump. In fact, that is the opposite of pump-and-dump. That means that the market price of Zcash will be set by a multitude of buyers and sellers, none of whom have a privileged position, and it means that the Founders will have an incentive for the price to go up after they sell. That's the opposite of pump-and-dump.

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#77

Post by natrius »

josu wrote: post #59
natrius wrote: post #25

Money is a claim on value, and fungibility forces everyone to honor all claims on value. An incorruptible record of the flow of trade through an economy allows you to eliminate fungibility. You can withdraw your consent for people to trade claims on your production. This ability requires no one's permission and makes you more powerful as an individual. ISIS, for instance, can only hold territory because everyone acce…

>Fungibility is literally killing people and destroying our planet. (...) Blockchains are not anonymous—their incorruptible histories give us the tools to reshape our society. Use them. That's a slippery slope and you probably don't want to go down that road. Think of the power that would confer to a totalitarian state.

Totalitarian states do just fine as it is. They use money to maintain their power. This might make totalitarian states impossible.

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#78

Post by bduerst »

MichaelGG wrote: post #36
aminorex wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. z.cash centralizes control under a corporation, which makes it vulnerable to legal process and political risk, and it is what is known in the crypto world as a "pre-mine scam".

What is the legal risk? With a zkp properly involved shouldn't de-anonymization be impossible? Or do you mean other risks?

They've gone on record saying they're not liable for any criminal activity used by their coins, which lends me to believe that they'll unmask and turn anyone over if subpoenaed.

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#79

Post by [deleted] »

repomies69 wrote: post #35
aminorex wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. z.cash centralizes control under a corporation, which makes it vulnerable to legal process and political risk, and it is what is known in the crypto world as a "pre-mine scam".

How is it a scam if the founders are honest about it? Everyone knows the name of the game.

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#80

Post by NobleSir »

zooko-zcash wrote: post #72
NobleSir wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cool protocol, trusted setup though.

Here's what I wrote about that: https://z.cash/blog/snark-parameters.html

A good writeup, and exactly what I was saying by "trusted set-up." I think it's important that this trusted set-up (and your writeup ofc) are known by anyone who is going to store value in the currency, rather than just merely assuming it's "same as bitcoin with more privacy."
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