Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#51

Post by martindale » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 10:00 AM UTC

True privacy is (probably) coming to Bitcoin in the form of Confidential Transactions [1], a new construction of Pedersen Commitments and Range Proofs, as combined with some number of other mechanisms (such as CoinJoin).

[1]: https://www.elementsproject.org/elements/confidential-transa...

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#52

Post by kbart » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 10:05 AM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #43

I'm weirdly ambivalent about Bitcoin privacy/anonymity. On the one hand I deeply value my privacy, and would personally love it if Bitcoin were fully anonymous. Yet - I also deeply felt intuitively that the Panama Papers exposed bad behavior. The bad behavior it exposed were people aiming to archive financial privacy. I can't really reconcile the two beliefs.

Yes. Fully anonymous digital currency and and widespread, legal usage is hard to imagine together. There's simply no way governments would allow that, so regulations of digital currencies is only a matter of time. Yes, I know that argument that "physical money is anonymous too", but that's not the same, physical money has physical constraint and you can't transfer huge amount of them around the world in a matter of seconds. Furthermore, a crackdown on real money has already started(1, 2 etc)..

1. http://www.euronews.com/2015/12/16/cash-losing-its-currency-...

2. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/08/german-plan-pro...

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#53

Post by amelius » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 10:22 AM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #43

I'm weirdly ambivalent about Bitcoin privacy/anonymity. On the one hand I deeply value my privacy, and would personally love it if Bitcoin were fully anonymous. Yet - I also deeply felt intuitively that the Panama Papers exposed bad behavior. The bad behavior it exposed were people aiming to archive financial privacy. I can't really reconcile the two beliefs.

Perhaps we need a system which exposes people only if they own more than a certain percentage of total capital.

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#54

Post by jackgavigan » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 10:25 AM UTC

ultramancool wrote: post #3

What's next? Well, true anonymity via zero knowledge proofs of course. https://z.cash/

To anyone denouncing Zcash as "pre-mined crap" (and anyone who gives any credence to such denunciations), I recommend reading the founder's blog post on Funding, Incentives and Governance: https://z.cash/blog/funding.html

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#55

Post by RyanZAG » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 10:30 AM UTC

Sinergy wrote: post #15

I hope everybody here knows about BitcoinFog, Shared Send, and other mixers. And uses them for random transactions now and then to give the rest of us plausible deniability.

Do you really believe money launderers will be able to stay afloat for long, even though they have fancy math? Governments will crack down on them as Bitcoin grows.

People do the same thing with real money and go to jail.

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#56

Post by jimlunard » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 10:38 AM UTC

Bitcoin has full anonymity only when you know what you're doing. And it is hard for an average joe to maintain that. There are many other coins to choose from - Ethereum, Dash, Monero https://www.coingecko.com/en

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#57

Post by sievebrain » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 10:47 AM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #43

I'm weirdly ambivalent about Bitcoin privacy/anonymity. On the one hand I deeply value my privacy, and would personally love it if Bitcoin were fully anonymous. Yet - I also deeply felt intuitively that the Panama Papers exposed bad behavior. The bad behavior it exposed were people aiming to archive financial privacy. I can't really reconcile the two beliefs.

It's easy to reconcile your beliefs: "Privacy is good when it's for me, and bad when it's for other people".

Privacy and anonymity in all forms can both benefit and be abused, which is why there's usually some sort of balance. Bitcoin doesn't attempt to find any balance, which is too bad.

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#58

Post by abishekk92 » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 11:02 AM UTC

kbart wrote: post #52

kristofferR wrote: post #43

I'm weirdly ambivalent about Bitcoin privacy/anonymity. On the one hand I deeply value my privacy, and would personally love it if Bitcoin were fully anonymous. Yet - I also deeply felt intuitively that the Panama Papers exposed bad behavior. The bad behavior it exposed were people aiming to archive financial privacy. I can't really reconcile the two beliefs.

Yes. Fully anonymous digital currency and and widespread, legal usage is hard to imagine together. There's simply no way governments would allow that, so regulations of digital currencies is only a matter of time. Yes, I know that argument that "physical money is anonymous too", but that's not the same, physical money has physical constraint and you can't transfer huge amount of them around the world in a matter of s…

I think Monero fits in nicely in such a scenario with its view key. They call it private, but optionally transparent. The regulators can ask to "view" a transaction.

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#59

Post by josu » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 12:20 PM UTC

natrius wrote: post #25

Money is a claim on value, and fungibility forces everyone to honor all claims on value. An incorruptible record of the flow of trade through an economy allows you to eliminate fungibility. You can withdraw your consent for people to trade claims on your production. This ability requires no one's permission and makes you more powerful as an individual. ISIS, for instance, can only hold territory because everyone acce…

>Fungibility is literally killing people and destroying our planet. (...) Blockchains are not anonymous—their incorruptible histories give us the tools to reshape our society. Use them.

That's a slippery slope and you probably don't want to go down that road. Think of the power that would confer to a totalitarian state.

Re: Bitcoin Users Reveal More Private Information Than They Realize

#60

Post by d0lph » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 12:48 PM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #43

I'm weirdly ambivalent about Bitcoin privacy/anonymity. On the one hand I deeply value my privacy, and would personally love it if Bitcoin were fully anonymous. Yet - I also deeply felt intuitively that the Panama Papers exposed bad behavior. The bad behavior it exposed were people aiming to archive financial privacy. I can't really reconcile the two beliefs.

Weren't they seeking to achieve tax evasion, not privacy?

Physical currencies are anonymous, and they are not widely seen as unethical.