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Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

bbc.com

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Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#421

Post by moosey »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #136
elemenopy wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per the Guardian[1]: > Six members of the House of Lords, three former Conservative MPs and dozens of donors to UK political parties have had offshore assets. I expect we'll hear more about this in coming days and weeks. I don't really understand this line of thinking. Big leak + "fancy website graphics" = vast Western conspiracy? Sounds less like insightful analysis and more like the kind of denial I'd expect from R…

The reason I'm thinking "vast Western conspiracy" is that you would think, as a common sense point, that when something like this appears Western journalists would be more interested in Western politicians first. But apparently not. I find that strange. I also find it strange that more people don't find it strange - because it's always been obvious to me that Putin is a completely generic oligarch crook, and I really…

I would surmise that they are holding off on Western Pols because they want to keep eyes as long as possible on this. For these organizations, eyeballs are money.

If they released a huge set of people on day one and didn't have much to show on day two, this would fall off the news cycle really quickly. I think that with the US political climate, they'll focus there soon, but they want a lot of people paying attention first.

This is just a guess, but it seems logical. We've seen this kind of slow-drip journalism with big data dumps in the past.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#422

Post by darkr »

wastedhours wrote: post #359
smhg wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much is he able to influence the British Virgin Islands? As they seem to be one of the top havens for years. If he is, and being a leader in the push for reform, what was on his agenda for BVI?

If you want a good primer on our influence/investment in the financial affairs of overseas dependencies and tax havens associated with Britain etc... then the book "Treasure Islands" by Nicholas Shaxson is a good place to start.

I was given this book for Christmas year before last. A very good read.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#423

Post by Mikeb85 »

varjag wrote: post #420
Mikeb85 wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sorry but no; also nobody generally gives a damn about Poroshenko given his temporary and marginal role in the world politics. They should. A leader was overthrown and a nation plunged into civil war so he could be installed. And somehow in 2 years he's managed to be even less-liked than Yanukovych was at his lowest point... http://www.gallup.com/poll/187931/ukrainians-disillusioned-l...

The nation was invaded, by that Russian dude you try to whitewash so hard. On the other hand, I now understand your issue with the revelations.

Natalie Jaresko is the finance minister (used to work for US State Dept), Poroshenko was a CIA informant and oligarch, Saakashvili (US stooge in Georgia who went to war with Russia, and now is wanted in Georgia for various crimes) is the governor of Odessa, the Canadian government admitted their embassy in Kyiv was used for logistics during the 'Maidan', and Yatseniuk was mentioned in a leaked phone call as a candidate to lead Ukraine before he became Prime Minister.

Yet there's no proof of an actual Russian invasion. Tell me, were Su-34s bombing Ukraine?

Do a new round of CIA leaks need to come out to see the obvious? Is all the coup d'états the US orchestrated over the years a conspiracy? Why are 4 American stooges leading Ukraine?

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#424

Post by varjag »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #423
varjag wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nation was invaded, by that Russian dude you try to whitewash so hard. On the other hand, I now understand your issue with the revelations.

Natalie Jaresko is the finance minister (used to work for US State Dept), Poroshenko was a CIA informant and oligarch, Saakashvili (US stooge in Georgia who went to war with Russia, and now is wanted in Georgia for various crimes) is the governor of Odessa, the Canadian government admitted their embassy in Kyiv was used for logistics during the 'Maidan', and Yatseniuk was mentioned in a leaked phone call as a candida…

T-72B3s, Grads, BTR-82s were rolling into Donbas. Crimea was annexed by Russian troops, as admitted by Putin, and it takes quite an interesting mindset to deny it. Also interesting how the USA came to all those troubles with installing Poroshenko, but couldn't fake a poll or two.

But as I said, I understand perfectly your beef with the leaks. There is a huge swath of political left who seems to deny people their agency if they align with the Western interests in any way.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#425

Post by Mikeb85 »

jonesb6 wrote: post #142

Apparently there are no American politicians or businessmen listed. And no coverage on NYTimes, CNN, Fox, MSNBC, CNN, USAtoday, LA Times, etc. That seems strange to me.

> Apparently there are no American politicians or businessmen listed.

Apparently the US has some sort of treaty with Panama to prevent its use as an offshore tax haven for Americans.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#426

Post by Mikeb85 »

varjag wrote: post #424
Mikeb85 wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natalie Jaresko is the finance minister (used to work for US State Dept), Poroshenko was a CIA informant and oligarch, Saakashvili (US stooge in Georgia who went to war with Russia, and now is wanted in Georgia for various crimes) is the governor of Odessa, the Canadian government admitted their embassy in Kyiv was used for logistics during the 'Maidan', and Yatseniuk was mentioned in a leaked phone call as a candida…

T-72B3s, Grads, BTR-82s were rolling into Donbas. Crimea was annexed by Russian troops, as admitted by Putin, and it takes quite an interesting mindset to deny it. Also interesting how the USA came to all those troubles with installing Poroshenko, but couldn't fake a poll or two. But as I said, I understand perfectly your beef with the leaks. There is a huge swath of political left who seems to deny people their agen…

> Crimea was annexed by Russian troops, as admitted by Putin, and it takes quite an interesting mindset to deny it.

If you'd ever followed Ukrainian politics before the Orange Revolution, or since independence, you'd know Crimea has always been very pro-Russian, and always voted for the pro-Russian candidate going back decades. They also tried to separate from and then gain autonomy within Ukraine.

In the case of Crimea, it was undoubtedly the will of the people.

> T-72B3s, Grads, BTR-82s were rolling into Donbas.

Proof beyond shitty pictures on the side of a road, followed by a shitty picture of a road sign? Or pictures from inside a video game? Or shitty YouTube videos? Or videos from Georgia, or inside Russia itself?

If there was evidence that wasn't potato-quality YouTube videos and images of dubious quality and value, I'd be a little more impressed.

For such a large invasion, the proof is amazingly poor. Especially since it's in the west's interest to provide proof - you'd think there'd be detailed satellite images or something.

Here's a good example of the fakery: http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4528166/senator-inhofe-shows-f...

A US senator presenting images of the wrong war to his fellow senators. Do you not understand how this looks like a bad joke? A full-scale invasion, and the US government can't provide any real images of it.

> But as I said, I understand perfectly your beef with the leaks.

As everyone should. Most people are completely ignoring the western leaders who are named, instead focusing on Putin who isn't named.

I'm sure the Russian government is plenty corrupt. But excuse me for not believing 100% of what our news/propaganda tells us. What's amazing as well is their lack of consistency. They praise the Orange Revolution, then when it falls apart, nothing. Maybe the odd piece throwing Tymoshenko under the bus. Then she's a martyr when she's prosecuted for crimes she likely did commit. Then Maidan arrives and when the western media realizes she's unpopular, she's once again forgotten. She's in these leaks too BTW.

Seriously though, it's hard to look at history, at the news, to follow the news consistently for an extended time, and to believe that what we're told is 100% 'factual'.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#427

Post by kafkaesq »

UVB-76 wrote: post #43
randomname2 wrote: post #24

Selected quote: "The ICIJ findings include evidence that: - Offshore companies linked to the family of China's top leader, Xi Jinping, as well as Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, who has positioned himself as a reformer in a country shaken by corruption scandals - 29 billionaires featured in Forbes Magazine's list of the world's 500 richest people - Icelandic Prime Minister Sigmundur David Gunnlaugsson and his w…

For what it's worth, being featured in these documents is not in and of itself evidence of any wrongdoing. There are entirely lawful and legitimate reasons for making use of offshore company structures.

Right. It isn't the "offshore company structures" which are themselves illegal. Or even owning offshore assets, per se.

It's owning assets you haven't declared to tax authorities that's illegal.

And where does one look for evidence of these holdings?

Offshore law firms. For example.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#428

Post by kafkaesq »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #339
hartpuff wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The NY Times has a story that he straight-up murdered a guy on American soil. This seemed extremely unlikely to me, so I Googled it. If you mean this story: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/03/us/mikhail-lesins-strange-... it doesn't say anything even remotely like Putin straight-up murdered a guy (a scumbag who has spent his life associating with and/or making enemies of other scumbags) on American soil. In fact it…

Alexander Litvinenko's death [1], on British soil, was definitely murder, though. According to the investigation, the Russian state was involved. Obviously, Putin didn't actually do the deed himself, but it seems more likely than not that he ordered it, or at least knew about the order. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvine...

Right -- No one disputes that Putin has been associated with all kinds of unseemly stuff. It's just that, at this juncture, there nothing beyond pure speculating tying him to Mikhail Lesin's untimely demise.

In other words: "He's a bad guy you know -- he's capable of anything" isn't, in my book, sufficient reason to believe that he was actually involved somehow.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#429

Post by kafkaesq »

the_watcher wrote: post #271
IkmoIkmo wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd replace wrongdoing with illegal. If you ask me, if you're a billionaire and you're not willing to pay taxes and spend 0.0001% of your wealth on the expertise to reduce your tax bill by 99%, in legal ways that 99.99% of the rest of the population doesn't engage in, then by all means that's wrongdoing to me and I think most would be with me on that. Of course it's not necessarily illegal.

There are still reasons to use shell corporations that are entirely legitimate, and have no moral issues whatsoever.

Right - no one ever said the Panama Files were interesting simply because they revealed the existence of overseas shell corporations.

It's the revelations of undeclared assets that make the disclosures interesting.

Re: Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax havens

#430

Post by ttflee »

ta_04032016 wrote: post #309

Many of the family members of current and former Chinese Politburo officials are exposed in the file leak. China has implemented a complete censorship about this topic and any sources/comments that mention the involvement of Chinese leaders/princelings have been deleted.

Little fresh information is exposed in this leak so far. It merely reconfirms the reports made by journalists from Bloomberg and Washington Post a few years ago.
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