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A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

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Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#191

Post by sambe »

In one of the most flagrantly opportunistic political redefinitions I've ever seen, the UK recently raised the minimum wage and called it Living Wage: sufficiently accurate to be arguable but completely co-opting the concept without even acknowledging the intention.

Several young, intelligent people I know actually believe the fuss about a basic income they've heard is just a minimum wage increase.

I haven't run the numbers per-country but just the idea seems sufficiently interesting to be plausible. Allowing BS political branding to dilute it to "another random budget change" is a total disservice to not just the poorer part of society but also to the future of the social system.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#192

Post by earlz »

refurb wrote: post #129
empath75 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top marginal tax rate would have to be dramatically increased to pay for it. Also, you'd have to increase capital gains and estate taxes. Make no mistake, basic minimum income would be a massive redistribution of wealth. I'm in favor of it, but let's not pretend we can pay for it by shuffling around some social safety net spending.

The top marginal tax rate would have to be dramatically increased to pay for it Someone should do the math! Sure you could increase the top marginal rate, but where does that get you. Yes, the top 1% is very wealthy, but there aren't many of them. I would bet you'd have to increase income taxes well down the income ladder, dipping down into what most people call the middle class. You simply can't avoid it, that's whe…

In theory there would definitely be some tax increases even for middle class, ideally it'd be closely balanced so that the non-conditional UBI would balance out the tax increases

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#193

Post by sokoloff »

alttab wrote: post #172
msellout wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It changed the amount you paid.

Either you're wrong, or I'm about to learn something. Explain?

You probably paid a higher purchase price, because even if you couldn't take the mortgage interest deduction (for whatever reason, maybe you paid all cash), you are still competing against other buyers, most of whom could take the deduction. That deduction saves them money, meaning they're willing to pay a higher price than they would if they couldn't take a mortgage interest deduction.

That those other buyers are willing to pay a higher price affects the comparable sales, the appraisal, the "Zestimate [haha]", the willingness of the seller to select your offer, etc.

Then, assuming you did have a mortgage and qualified for the deduction (most people with one home do), you paid less (net) for the loan than you would have otherwise.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#194

Post by gozur88 »

spankalee wrote: post #91
alttab wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mortgage interest deduction "hurts" only government tax revenues. Raising the tide on minimum wage impacts every business that has employees, regardless of what their cost structure is. What if your business worked in such a way that a single employee wouldn't even produce $15 of revenue in an hour? You can't lose money on every sale and make up for it in volume. The artificial increase is a problem because it go…

The mortgage interest deduction disadvantages renters compared to owners. Subsidizing home ownership effectively taxes renting.

Sure, and property taxes effectively tax owning. The amount of tax a landlord pays per unit is less than a homeowner pays for his house.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#195

Post by Karunamon »

spinlock wrote: post #113
quietwhisper wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, what statistics? http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/09/wel... http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/10/25/240590433/what-...

I do think that's a different issue but I'm with you that the assumption that poor people will spend money on drugs or alcohol is pretty far off base. After all, aren't most people in the US forced into debt because of healthcare? Getting sick shouldn't be viewed as a vice.

Who said anything about drugs or alcohol?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#196

Post by clarkmoody »

yanilkr wrote: post #95

A Basic Income from Govt comes at a huge price of loss of individual liberty. If someone gives you free stuff, they will expect controls like where you are allowed to spend your money and time. This model of taking from the productive sources and rewarding everyone else will have to break at a certain point. how come you get rewarded for enjoying the gossip column and I spend extra effort doing something else which i…

The Basic Income is the terminal phase of a democracy, wherein people are rewarded simply for existing, extracting their subsistence from the productive forces in the economy. It is the final vote-buying mechanism of the political elite to create a permanent dependent underclass.

Thanks to our democratically-installed public school system, liberty is a topic which cannot be discussed in polite company. Don't be discouraged when you get down-voted by the Hacker News progressive/socialist hive mind.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#197

Post by NDizzle »

clarkmoody wrote: post #175
QuotedForTruth wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter argument is that human labor has an actual cost. That is the cost to keep a human alive and in some level of comfort. Government benefits of many different types have "artificially" lowered this cost. Where employees refuse to pay enough for a human to live on, the government picks up the slack. Raising the minimum wage may be "artificial," but its not the first control placed on some otherwise natural la…

Critical omission on your part: not everyone needs to live on this wage. Think about high school kids trying to get a summer job. They don't need to survive on this wage, they simply need something productive to do over the summer. Should my business be required to shell out $15/hr for a high school kid, when the value of his/her labor is way less than that?

I'm really interested to see what happens to the price of a season pass to the community swimming pool if/when doubling the minimum wage goes through.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#198

Post by merpnderp »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #108
merpnderp wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without government power, corporations don't have any power. They only exert their power through the government. What, is Apple coming to my house to tell me what to do, how I can work, or to collect a tax? Just like Disney keeps you from file sharing by using the government, so does the your local health insurance company keep out the competition by excessive government regulations they helped write.

Without government intervention, corporations control the labour market. With no minimum wage, no basic income, and increasing automation, do you really think corporations wouldn't drive wages down to zero? There are countries with little to no government intervention, and countries with lots. The latter are objectively much better places.

This is always the response to any libertarian argument of even mild government reform "If you don't like it, then go live in Somalia". As if rolling back government intervention in the economy to something like say the booming 1950's isn't a rational proposal.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#199

Post by msellout »

johndevor wrote: post #45
virmundi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The advocates for such policy do keep this in mind. They require tax increases on business. If you make money, you have to pay. The idea is to help reallocate wealth because the market has moved beyond certain segments of labor. For example, when McDonald's can automate half its staff, the other half can't provide labor at the minimum price to be worth while. UBI says give these people, those displaced from the labor…

Won't higher taxes here in the US drive more and more business overseas (specifically to China) and further exacerbate the problem of income inequality? We already see corporations keeping massive amounts of capital overseas because of high tax rates. That money should and could be here in the USA.

Empirically, no. Or at least not to the extent that many people fear. Many businesses are headquartered in NYC, despite the city's extra taxes.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#200

Post by krisdol »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #142
rmc wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it artificially increases the cost of labor That's the point. A floor. Through which people should not have to work below at.

Whereas universal income means that everyone in society can tell terrible bosses that they can take their shitty job and shove it, and still live with dignity, a greater dignity than having to work at the absolute minimum of pay, regardless of whether 51% of politicians choose to call it a "living wage."

A minimum wage raises the floor for workers making below the minimum. A basic income raises the floor for all. The former results is fewer steps to climb for someone at the bottom to reach your floor, the latter results in an unchanged amount of steps but the stairs just happen to be located further from sea level.

If workers leave walmart to live off of basic income, all walmart has to do is increase prices and workers would again be forced to work for basic sustenance, as they would no longer afford walmart's monopolized goods. If they live in a left-leaning or urban area, they may be lucky to have a food co-op, but those are already unlikely to be paying bare minimum wage, and are generally located in more expensive areas.

At best, UBI will totally ineffective. At worst, few will capitalize on it early on to reach some success before the market adjusts, and the Koch/Cato ilk will use that success to further push an anti-labor agenda until the system implodes again.

I was all for UBI when I first heard of it, but more and more I realize it's just another neoliberal economic policy that fails to address the root causes of class division. Perhaps it will be our decade's "microloan" scam.

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