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A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

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Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#51

Post by jandrese »

mordocai wrote: post #39
paulpauper wrote: post #4

But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…

I don't think your points are necessarily wrong, but I have a couple comments. These are from the standpoint of the USA, I don't know much about other countries. 1. Basic income + universal healthcare theoretically would be able to replace all other welfare programs, so there shouldn't be people "wasting" their basic income while drawing from existing programs. Also, I consider some level of frivolities as a basic ne…

As I understand it, that gap is a myth. You don't lose benefits as soon as you cross some imaginary threshold, they are phased out as your income increases. So you don't have as much incentive to make more money, but you never lose money in the process.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#52

Post by ptaipale »

forrestthewoods wrote: post #24

On the topic of immigrants and minimum wage/basic income. Brussels provided free housing, food, health care, and education to immigrants. And yet their immigrant community was still unable and/or unwilling to integrate. Basic income and/or higher minimum wage doesn't solve all problems. It even causes some new ones. Which isn't to say it isn't a good idea. But we probably don't discuss the problems as much as we shou…

Yep. I think the biggest problem is the assumption that universal basic income would replace any existing welfare programs. In reality, it seems that this is not going to happen, because one size doesn't fit all, and existing welfare programs cover vastly differing cases at vastly differing cost levels (unemployment, disability, old age, serious and not-so-serious illnesses).

Over here (Finland), the current government is planning a trial for UBI. It looks like pretty much none of the existing benefits can be cut because they are "fundamental human rights" or similar.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#53

Post by quietwhisper »

Karunamon wrote: post #19
paulpauper wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proponents of the UBI make the generous assumption that recipients will be as careful with money as they (the proponents) are . Choosing between food & housing credits vs. cash, the former has less room for abuse. Its like "I would never use my UBI on alcohol"...well you're not "most people"

Given the frankly despair-inducing statistics of what happens to poor people when they acquire a sudden cash windfall (and if you're flat broke and living on the streets, a few hundred every couple weeks is HUGE), I intend to agree. Most UBI implementations I've seen require gutting existing welfare systems - okay, fine, but what happens to the person who inevitably squanders their money?

Sorry, what statistics?

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/09/wel...

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/10/25/240590433/what-...

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#54

Post by stickydink »

Permit wrote: post #41
seibelj wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't have an opinion on any of this, but how many of the population you calculate are citizens over the age of 18? And what would be saved from the US budget by eliminating various existing programs that would be superfluous by UBI?

Do children not typically receive the universal basic income? If not, is it fair to give a parent of three children the same allowance as I (a single person) receive? I also wonder about whether or not $10,000 is more or less than someone on disability currently receives. Is there a risk here that the more vulnerable members of society will end up receiving less money?

There's a risk that people decide that pumping out children is an effective way to make money in the short term.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#55

Post by Shivetya »

paulpauper wrote: post #4

But what about existing entitlement sending, which keeps growing? A UBI without preconditions will only compound that problem, because what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs. Many people may agree to work for less than the current minimum wage, and on more flexible terms, if they're supplementing a guaranteed income, not scrambling to av…

there are nearly three thousand Federal assistance programs, 1800 that are domestic - meaning families and people in general, and 1200+ just to states, cities, and localities.

Not many are going to be willing to give up on any of them. There is too much power involved here to easily give it up.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#56

Post by camhenlin »

johndevor wrote: post #45
virmundi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The advocates for such policy do keep this in mind. They require tax increases on business. If you make money, you have to pay. The idea is to help reallocate wealth because the market has moved beyond certain segments of labor. For example, when McDonald's can automate half its staff, the other half can't provide labor at the minimum price to be worth while. UBI says give these people, those displaced from the labor…

Won't higher taxes here in the US drive more and more business overseas (specifically to China) and further exacerbate the problem of income inequality? We already see corporations keeping massive amounts of capital overseas because of high tax rates. That money should and could be here in the USA.

Yes but it won't matter because the newly displaced workers will receive basic income!

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#57

Post by alttab »

empath75 wrote: post #32
harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

The top marginal tax rate would have to be dramatically increased to pay for it. Also, you'd have to increase capital gains and estate taxes. Make no mistake, basic minimum income would be a massive redistribution of wealth. I'm in favor of it, but let's not pretend we can pay for it by shuffling around some social safety net spending.

It would completely remove the necessity to be productive. That can't turn out well.

What's preventing me from having as many babies as I can knowing that they too will not have to work or find a job to be supported?

I know this won't work at scale, because I understand math.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#58

Post by danvoell »

virmundi wrote: post #30
harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

The advocates for such policy do keep this in mind. They require tax increases on business. If you make money, you have to pay. The idea is to help reallocate wealth because the market has moved beyond certain segments of labor. For example, when McDonald's can automate half its staff, the other half can't provide labor at the minimum price to be worth while. UBI says give these people, those displaced from the labor…

What happens to the people who can't get jobs to begin with? Also, does this make it harder for companies like McDonalds to higher people, if they are worried that the employee might be a future claimant?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#59

Post by empath75 »

Karunamon wrote: post #19
paulpauper wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proponents of the UBI make the generous assumption that recipients will be as careful with money as they (the proponents) are . Choosing between food & housing credits vs. cash, the former has less room for abuse. Its like "I would never use my UBI on alcohol"...well you're not "most people"

Given the frankly despair-inducing statistics of what happens to poor people when they acquire a sudden cash windfall (and if you're flat broke and living on the streets, a few hundred every couple weeks is HUGE), I intend to agree. Most UBI implementations I've seen require gutting existing welfare systems - okay, fine, but what happens to the person who inevitably squanders their money?

I think probably the only thing that would have to go along with UBI is extreme restrictions on credit and borrowing for people that are relying on it. It's not really a huge problem for someone to blow all their UBI money for a month or two because they'll have more coming in. If they compound that with high-interest debt, they can dig themselves into a whole they can't get out of of.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#60

Post by tangent128 »

johndevor wrote: post #45
virmundi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The advocates for such policy do keep this in mind. They require tax increases on business. If you make money, you have to pay. The idea is to help reallocate wealth because the market has moved beyond certain segments of labor. For example, when McDonald's can automate half its staff, the other half can't provide labor at the minimum price to be worth while. UBI says give these people, those displaced from the labor…

Won't higher taxes here in the US drive more and more business overseas (specifically to China) and further exacerbate the problem of income inequality? We already see corporations keeping massive amounts of capital overseas because of high tax rates. That money should and could be here in the USA.

What value exists in bringing that capital back "in" to the USA if it provides no benefit to US citizens in doing so?
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