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The Tools of a Blind Programmer

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Re: The Tools of a Blind Programmer

#11

Post by chris_wot »

gchpaco wrote: post #8
chris_wot wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious how you would think of three dimensional objects without ever being able to see them... I guess you would have to describe them. As a suggestion - and not an attack in any way because I'm not sure how I'd do it! - without reference to anything you can see with your eyes, how would you describe space?

As a counterpoint it's routine in topological mathematics to work with 8 or 12 or 11 dimensional objects.

Good point! But is this done without any reference to 3 dimensional objects, or does it take the principle and not make any assumptions, or describe it in such a way that the concept is explained without any aspects related to sight?

Genuinely curious...

Re: The Tools of a Blind Programmer

#12

Post by chestervonwinch »

chris_wot wrote: post #7
Zecc wrote: post #4

Is it really that hard for a blind person to intuit geometry? I would have figured one does not require working eyes to understand space.

I'm genuinely curious how you would think of three dimensional objects without ever being able to see them... I guess you would have to describe them. As a suggestion - and not an attack in any way because I'm not sure how I'd do it! - without reference to anything you can see with your eyes, how would you describe space?

You could take a linear algebra approach and explain dimension as the number of possible independent directions of movement. This could be experienced through touch. Start with a pencil, then a piece of paper, then 3-space, and so on.

Re: The Tools of a Blind Programmer

#13

Post by chris_wot »

gchpaco wrote: post #10
chris_wot wrote: post #5

I wonder if it might be worthwhile for sighted developers to set up a system that a blind person would use and then blindfold themselves, and start using the system... Perhaps that would make it easier for us to develop software that works well for blind people?

Part of the problem is that most accessibility software has a hell of a learning curve, that the blind have implicitly overcome already to use the thing at all. (e.g. emacspeak) It can be very daunting to try to use it as a sighted person with a blindfold over their eyes.

Have blind people overcome this because of past experience and living with the fact of being blind, or is it the case that the software isn't necessarily intuitive in the first place?

I think when I have a moment I might attempt this as an exercise...

Re: The Tools of a Blind Programmer

#14

Post by voltagex_ »

chris_wot wrote: post #13
gchpaco wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that most accessibility software has a hell of a learning curve, that the blind have implicitly overcome already to use the thing at all. (e.g. emacspeak) It can be very daunting to try to use it as a sighted person with a blindfold over their eyes.

Have blind people overcome this because of past experience and living with the fact of being blind, or is it the case that the software isn't necessarily intuitive in the first place? I think when I have a moment I might attempt this as an exercise...

I've had a tiny, tiny amount of experience with using NVDA through work and the first hurdle is the incredible number of keyboard shortcuts to learn. The only other tip I can give is to unplug your mouse and give it a go.

Re: The Tools of a Blind Programmer

#15

Post by andrewchambers »

chris_wot wrote: post #7
Zecc wrote: post #4

Is it really that hard for a blind person to intuit geometry? I would have figured one does not require working eyes to understand space.

I'm genuinely curious how you would think of three dimensional objects without ever being able to see them... I guess you would have to describe them. As a suggestion - and not an attack in any way because I'm not sure how I'd do it! - without reference to anything you can see with your eyes, how would you describe space?

well, you can feel depth and surfaces with your hands, i don't think that is a problem.

Re: The Tools of a Blind Programmer

#16

Post by skywhopper »

Zecc wrote: post #4

Is it really that hard for a blind person to intuit geometry? I would have figured one does not require working eyes to understand space.

Blind people likely understand space far better than sighted individuals. But computer desktop geometry is something entirely different, and not something that's easy to describe.

In any case, it's never a good idea to question someone with a different set of abilities than you have with a "is it really that hard?" Their experience far outweighs your naive intuition about what's easy and hard for them.

Re: The Tools of a Blind Programmer

#17

Post by lr4444lr »

Fascinating. We programmers live by our eyes, and I've had a few frightening flights of fancy about losing my sight, and what employment would be like in this field. I still wonder though how you'd go about reading other people's (bad) code, since there isn't any prior memory about what it was _supposed_ to do, and how you perform major refactors that just appear so "visual" to my way of thinking, e.g. hollowing out a function body into two smaller functions and adding a tail call.

Re: The Tools of a Blind Programmer

#19

Post by stevetrewick »

lr4444lr wrote: post #17

Fascinating. We programmers live by our eyes, and I've had a few frightening flights of fancy about losing my sight, and what employment would be like in this field. I still wonder though how you'd go about reading other people's (bad) code, since there isn't any prior memory about what it was _supposed_ to do, and how you perform major refactors that just appear so "visual" to my way of thinking, e.g. hollowing out…

>e.g. hollowing out a function body into two smaller functions and adding a tail call.

Actually theres's a direct analogy there. The reason you do that is to make it easier to comprehend. It looks messy. To much info. Now imagine you have to listen to your screen reader speaking all of it. Same deal. To much, time to refactor to something more navigable.

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