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Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

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Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#231

Post by fauigerzigerk »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #94
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conservative government here in the UK has put the minimum wage on a steep upward trajectory. This is not a conservative vs left-wing (or liberal as you like to call it) thing. The more important distinction is between those who keep holding on to paid work as the main or only moral basis for deserved income and the other camp that tries to move away from that principle. There are conservative, left-leaning and l…

You must be aware that "conservative" means something somewhat different in the US compared to the rest of the world. I agree that it's rather silly and exceptionalist of us, but the fact remains that Americans who identify as conservative are very likely to want to reduce public support.

I am aware of that, but I find it interesting that being for or against basic income is not an ideological constant to the same extent as many other policies.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#232

Post by fauigerzigerk »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #91
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conservative government here in the UK has put the minimum wage on a steep upward trajectory. This is not a conservative vs left-wing (or liberal as you like to call it) thing. The more important distinction is between those who keep holding on to paid work as the main or only moral basis for deserved income and the other camp that tries to move away from that principle. There are conservative, left-leaning and l…

That may be true in the UK, but here in the States it is overwhelmingly a left-vs-right debate.

What's interesting is that those who ascribe some sort of moral (or maybe just sentimental) value to being in work are currently a majority on the left and on the right. That goes for the US as well as for Britain.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#233

Post by badminton1 »

Before computerized elevators, there were manually operated elevators. Before automatic telephone switchboards there were manually operated telephone switchboards... Those things were relatively modern.

Future people will say: before automated kitchens there were manually operated kitchens, before automated cleaners there were janitors, before self-driving cars there were manual cars... and so on.

The domain of tasks that can only be done reliably by humans is shrinking. Humans are being pushed to do more complex things. But that doesn't scale infinitely. Robots eventually will be able to do better.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#234

Post by pitay »

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #215
Spooky23 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's absurdity. If economics were the end all, be all, we'd live in a planned economy dominated by a small cartel of businesses. Society rejected that 100+ years ago. Recall that until recently, the folks concerning themselves with money were not at the top of the social heap -- with good reason.

Based on your usage, this is totally wrong notion of "absurdity." What I wrote is actually correct. I'm not sure what "economics were the end all be all means" but economics is a method by which to understand the "world" under the circumstance of scarcity. I suggest reading a little more of it; it's an interesting topic. Actually, I don't think this makes any sense. Economics is not about describing a perfect society…

Most economists didn't predict the Global Financial Crisis. Given that you have to wonder about the utility of the so called 'economics' and whether statements made by economists are true.

Feel free to correct me or give more information, I am perfectly fine with being educated.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#235

Post by pitay »

apalmer wrote: post #193
robryan wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference though between them being paid for unproductive work for the sake of having a job or being paid a basic income?

but that's the thing... they most likely wont be paid for unproductive work or given a basic income they will simply be let to starve as has ALWAYS been done historically. This is the key point that always perplexes me in these discussions of automation, the belief that somehow a fully automated society is going to lead to large swaths of the population not doing work and somehow being given basic income and being le…

One could hope that we aspire higher than killing people or allowing people to dies because they have no use to you. It's psychopathic and values people as nothing expect for their use to you, the same way a rapist doesn't give any value to their victims lives, just what they can get from them. Anyone suggesting that unemployed people don't get paid are on the same boat, because they do not value those lives at all, unless it gets them something.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#236

Post by pitay »

dragonwriter wrote: post #102
oconnore wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are essentially making the luddite case. I'm not, I'm just countering some "don't worry, everything will be fine" idealism. I don't think we should halt progress, but I do think we should be more intentional about how we go about it. There is not currently a solution on the table to address mass un/under-employment caused by near-term automation. Basic income is thrown around, but even if enacted, does not chan…

People should want to be valued, and people should be motivated to provide value to others via the market. Basic income is a good thing because it preserves this, while at the same time recognizing and mitigating the harms arising from the fact that automation and fluid market conditions make it increasingly likely that success in providing marketable value will both require periodic adjustments and be intermittent f…

And giving the people freedom to get away from bad employers destroying their life, helping society to reduce horrible employment conditions.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#237

Post by SyneRyder »

karmacondon wrote: post #111

I think the fundamental purpose of a business is to accomplish a task, not to employ people. For example, I don't care how many people are employed to keep hackernews running. I'm thankful for their efforts, but I don't care if it's one person, ten people, or one bot. Or how much any of them get paid. The only thing that consumers and businesses care about is the end result. If a job can be done by a machine, that's…

"Fortunately, fully automating the process of driving or running a restaurant is decades away."

It's closer than you think. Dominos Australia is already trialling automated delivery (in Brisbane, I believe?) with their new DRU robots. [1][2] On the pro-human side, Dominos appear to be testing if people will pay extra for a human, under the guise of "For an extra $3, guaranteed delivery in 20 minutes." (The DRU robots have a top speed of 20km/hr currently.)

[1] https://www.dominos.com.au/inside-dominos/technology/dru

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb0nxQyv7RU

[3] https://www.dominos.com.au/inside-dominos/technology/deliver...

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#238

Post by LunaSea »

Chinjut wrote: post #87
oconnore wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are essentially making the luddite case. I'm not, I'm just countering some "don't worry, everything will be fine" idealism. I don't think we should halt progress, but I do think we should be more intentional about how we go about it. There is not currently a solution on the table to address mass un/under-employment caused by near-term automation. Basic income is thrown around, but even if enacted, does not chan…

The solution I'd like to see: Enact basic income AND change the fact that our culture views work ethic (narrowly defined in terms of market income) ~= value.

How do you enact basic income when a majority of your population doesn't have an income and thus can't pay the taxes that finance that exact basic income?

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#239

Post by Kliment »

zo1 wrote: post #116
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this contradict the parent comment? Minimum wage obviously doesn't affect Google engineers, it affects the unskilled labor with near-limitless supply that you have mentioned. The idea is to prevent that kind of labor from becoming basically slavery.

>" it affects the unskilled labor with near-limitless supply that you have mentioned. " That "near-limitless" supply is the actual problem. Horrible as it may sound, but we're already talking about people and people's labour as a resource. Unless you allow the market to regulate the supply, you'll always have an imbalance. In fact, we make it worse by letting it get to this point. If we were to let the market work on…

This seems wrongheaded in the face of overwhelming evidence that fertility rates are strongly negatively correlated with income and quality of life.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#240

Post by adwn »

chii wrote: post #148
spdy wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a nasty new world order coming where a vast majority of jobs will be gone. There will be super wealthy 'robot owners' and peasant/slaves This will maybe be the case in the beginning but if you have to deal with an unemployment rate of 20-40% inside a country under heavy arms as America you have to find solutions quickly as modern society tend to fix problems when they occur we will have a bumpy ride into ou…

>we can provide the basic needs to everyone food / electricity / water / housing at no cost. what evidence do you have of this? those resources are not free (unless you consider fusion a solved problem, and thus have near-free energy). More likely scenario is that the vast majority of people who are too uneducated, or is not from a wealthy background will suffer, whilst those with the means will live way above (liter…

> (unless you consider fusion a solved problem, and thus have near-free energy)

I wonder where the idea that "fusion = extremely cheap" comes from. Even if/when we get commercially viable fusion, there's no reason why it should be significantly cheaper than energy from nuclear fission – you'll still need extremely complicated, high-precision, high-technology machines, generators, cooling towers, buildings, skilled workers, some amount of regulation, and disposal of nuclear waste. Oh, and if your fusion design is a tokamak, it might easily be more expensive than energy from fission reactors.

If you want electrical energy that's some orders of magnitude cheaper, you'll need a break-through in fundamental physics.

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