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Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

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Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#171

Post by petra »

clarkmoody wrote: post #152
dragonwriter wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum wage increases, experience has shown, put upward pressure on wages generally. It is not the case that everyone making between the old minimum wage and the new minimum wage ends up at the new minimum after the change.

Let's continue your thought: If minimum wage increases put upward pressure on wages generally, then what happens? Higher wage levels in general means more money in people's pockets, and this can turn into general price inflation (especially since business costs have risen due to the general level of wages going up). So let's assume you now have inflation. This means everything just got more expensive, so now that new…

More money in people's pocket doesn't necessarily cause inflation in everything - for goods which supply can be increased at will(new factory etc), their long-term prices mostly depend on competition and manufacturing costs.

As for goods with inherently limited supply, like land, there would likely be some inflation - so in the end maybe you'll spend the same salary share on them. But the rest of your salary still carries more purchasing power than before.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#172

Post by patrickaljord »

Frondo wrote: post #169
patrickaljord wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if I still want to exercise my business without a license? How would they enforce it? Hint: see what happens to abortion practitioners in countries where abortion is illegal or marijuana resellers where it's illegal etc.

The idea that business activity can be regulated or controlled by a state governing body is not new, is not controversial, and is also not robbery.

It isn't robbery as defined by the law like the death penalty isn't murder either legally. From a philosophical point of view though, opinions defer. Not saying I agree or not, just saying.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#173

Post by erkkie »

dropit_sphere wrote: post #156
felipeko wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not op, but i will try. There's no distinction of biological computation and machine computation, there's just computation. What our brain is doing is computation, we may not fully understand how it does what it does yet, but what we know is that our brain is a very powerful computational machine, that's why it is so hard to emulate its processes. But as man-made machines are still getting more powerful, it will some…

>There's no distinction of biological computation and machine computation, there's just computation. What our brain is doing is computation, we may not fully understand how it does what it does yet, Doesn't the second part cast doubt on the first part?

Only if you fundamentally believe there's something "magical" going on in the brain; scientifically there's no reason to believe that (given current understanding).

We understand individual neurons and how they can lead to computation, we also understand (the existence of) emergent behavior in general.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#174

Post by dinkumthinkum »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #153
WalterBright wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people find a business's product valuable enough that they'd pay their own money for it, then it serves a valuable purpose.

Overly small scale perspective. Exaggerated scenario for clarity: your one starving human buying survival kibble from a fully automated megacorporation is better off with the kibble and without the pittance they spent on it, an infinitesimal amount of value was created. But humanity as a whole would be better off overthrowing the business system and directing the machines to make every human's life a paradise. System…

No, not at all. I think in all the comments here, there is an egregious error. The error is in totally ignoring the concept of economics or failing the recognize the reality of scarcity. It's not a "social construct"in any non-trivial sense. People throw that "social construct" thing around as if it is at all relevant. You could say the "law of identity" is a social construct and you don't accept ... Ok that's fine, it just means you, and I mean this only literally, don't accept "logic."

To "make every human's life a paradise" is also quite literally to either reject the concept of scarcity or to think you would create some sort "Matrix" like environment, some weird sci-fi stuff, which is fun to talk about but not a solid economics argument.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#175

Post by true_religion »

patrickaljord wrote: post #167
nomat wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would just revoke it because they are the issuers of the license in the first place. You can't take something that you already own from yourself by force.

What if I still want to exercise my business without a license? How would they enforce it? Hint: see what happens to abortion practitioners in countries where abortion is illegal or marijuana resellers where it's illegal etc.

Most businesses don't require a license to operate unless they deal with controlled goods like tobacco, alcohol, pharmaceuticals, or the exploitation of natural resources.

Beyond that, what the government provides is the articles of incorporation to limit the liability of investors, and allow the owners and operators of the business to act as a single entity within the court system.

If we take away the articles of incorporation, the business can still operate but it's not shielded in anyway from being cut up piecemeal via lawsuits, and a lot of the reason people find it worthwhile to invest in or work for a corporation will be removed.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#176

Post by dinkumthinkum »

karmacondon wrote: post #111

I think the fundamental purpose of a business is to accomplish a task, not to employ people. For example, I don't care how many people are employed to keep hackernews running. I'm thankful for their efforts, but I don't care if it's one person, ten people, or one bot. Or how much any of them get paid. The only thing that consumers and businesses care about is the end result. If a job can be done by a machine, that's…

The one fault in your logic is that the way companies behave in terms of hiring, can affect the value decision for agents/consumers and thus I think the economics in the world is a little more complicated than you suggest.

But, I kind of agree with your basic point.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#177

Post by superuser2 »

tmptmp wrote: post #141
JulianMorrison wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business is a social construct and we can un-construct it if it proves no longer to be the socially valuable way to do things. It's there to serve humans. if it doesn't do that, it's a parasite, drag it out behind the shed and shoot it.

The Marxists and communists have tried doing that thing many times and have failed spectacularly. Business based market economy is the only (till now) successful and socially most beneficial type of society that has ever existed. I upvoted the OP because he/she/it (it may be a bot) has put this thing in clear words.

The Soviet Union depended on an enormous laboring class to meet its production needs; the whole point is that we no longer do.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#178

Post by gamerDude »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #128

I don't want employment, and hell no I definitely don't want full employment, just the opposite. I want us as a species to transition to a leisure society with the ick automated away, and the only jobs humans do being ones humans would love to do for the sheer fun of it. Because a minimum wage has a loophole for "not employed at all", it isn't good enough. A Basic Income has no such loophole, and will allow poor peop…

In a total leisure society, how do we pay for Basic Income? Where does the government get the money to give out to everyone?

I agree with you. But I think its not about Basic Income, but the idea of Basic Utility/Survival where we can supply basic needs for free, via automation etc.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#179

Post by jjoonathan »

jrmurad wrote: post #160
JulianMorrison wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business is a social construct and we can un-construct it if it proves no longer to be the socially valuable way to do things. It's there to serve humans. if it doesn't do that, it's a parasite, drag it out behind the shed and shoot it.

"un-construct it... drag it out behind the shed and shoot it." Can you "un-construct" this newspeak for us? It sounds like you're advocating that you or some other force besides free and voluntary trade should literally shut down private businesses, possibly beating and robbing their owners in the process (as has been done historically)? Because there's some formula for determining "social value" which has "number of…

> It sounds like you're advocating ... literally shut down private businesses, possibly beating and robbing their owners in the process

No, that's what happens in the scenario where we make workers redundant and fail to provide some alternative social contract.

> Because there's some formula for determining "social value" which has "number of employees" as a factor?

Value of Social Contract = (cost of what you have to sell)/(cost of what you need), aggregate over members of the social group in question.

Markets ruthlessly optimize both the numerator and denominator. So far, the scales have tipped in a direction that benefits most members of our society because there has been plenty of (relatively) valuable work to do. That may be changing. A decreasing numerator can be worse than an increasing (or shrinking-but-too-slowly) denominator. Even in aggregate. The market doesn't really have an innate preference for one direction or another.

It's up to us to fix the problem if the winds shift. If we don't, someone else will, and it will get very messy.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#180

Post by nomat »

clarkmoody wrote: post #152
dragonwriter wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum wage increases, experience has shown, put upward pressure on wages generally. It is not the case that everyone making between the old minimum wage and the new minimum wage ends up at the new minimum after the change.

Let's continue your thought: If minimum wage increases put upward pressure on wages generally, then what happens? Higher wage levels in general means more money in people's pockets, and this can turn into general price inflation (especially since business costs have risen due to the general level of wages going up). So let's assume you now have inflation. This means everything just got more expensive, so now that new…

Then it seems like the minimum wage is not the underlying issue.

If there are too many people and not enough jobs, fiddling with the minimum wage won't have any real effect because regardless of what it is, there are always going to be people who are jobless (and therefore without income).

So how do we reconcile the fact that currently, most people must work in order to live and yet there isn't enough work to go around?

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