Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

vox.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 376 posts

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#161

Post by Frondo »

jrmurad wrote: post #160
JulianMorrison wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business is a social construct and we can un-construct it if it proves no longer to be the socially valuable way to do things. It's there to serve humans. if it doesn't do that, it's a parasite, drag it out behind the shed and shoot it.

"un-construct it... drag it out behind the shed and shoot it." Can you "un-construct" this newspeak for us? It sounds like you're advocating that you or some other force besides free and voluntary trade should literally shut down private businesses, possibly beating and robbing their owners in the process (as has been done historically)? Because there's some formula for determining "social value" which has "number of…

I'm quite sure the "un-construction" he's talking about takes the lines of, say, revoking a business license.

I have no idea why you imagined it would involve beating and robbing anyone.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#162

Post by JulianMorrison »

jrmurad wrote: post #160
JulianMorrison wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business is a social construct and we can un-construct it if it proves no longer to be the socially valuable way to do things. It's there to serve humans. if it doesn't do that, it's a parasite, drag it out behind the shed and shoot it.

"un-construct it... drag it out behind the shed and shoot it." Can you "un-construct" this newspeak for us? It sounds like you're advocating that you or some other force besides free and voluntary trade should literally shut down private businesses, possibly beating and robbing their owners in the process (as has been done historically)? Because there's some formula for determining "social value" which has "number of…

Humanity, a sufficient majority thereof, simply stops playing the game. Money was a concept. It is now ignored. Corporations were a concept. They are no longer believed in. Ownership is a bouncing cheque with nobody caring to cash it. Most people stop playing "private business". You owned a railway? It's been automated. You owned a steel foundry? It's been automated. It answers to the world direct democracy, not to you. It's busy making things for free. And everyone else is busy doing their vocations. If you wanna go hide in a valley, sell things to each other and hope for civilization to vanish, go right ahead.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#163

Post by patrickaljord »

Frondo wrote: post #161
jrmurad wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"un-construct it... drag it out behind the shed and shoot it." Can you "un-construct" this newspeak for us? It sounds like you're advocating that you or some other force besides free and voluntary trade should literally shut down private businesses, possibly beating and robbing their owners in the process (as has been done historically)? Because there's some formula for determining "social value" which has "number of…

I'm quite sure the "un-construction" he's talking about takes the lines of, say, revoking a business license. I have no idea why you imagined it would involve beating and robbing anyone.

> I have no idea why you imagined it would involve beating and robbing anyone.

How do you think government would enforce that "revoking a business license" thing?

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#164

Post by nomat »

patrickaljord wrote: post #163
Frondo wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite sure the "un-construction" he's talking about takes the lines of, say, revoking a business license. I have no idea why you imagined it would involve beating and robbing anyone.

> I have no idea why you imagined it would involve beating and robbing anyone. How do you think government would enforce that "revoking a business license" thing?

They would just revoke it because they are the issuers of the license in the first place. You can't take something that you already own from yourself by force.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#165

Post by Retra »

pgtruesdell wrote: post #93
karmacondon wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think minimum wage laws exist? It's because at one point in our nation's history, businesses implicitly colluded to set wages low. They have more power in wage negotiations than workers do, because there are generally people who can afford to do unskilled labor for very small amounts. Businesses got greedy and took that too far, offering people wages far beyond a minimum standard of living. So in response,…

Collusion to suppress wages is already illegal. All you're saying is that you don't have any faith in the government to prevent collusion. Which is a whole separate issue.

You can revoke laws. In fact, this whole discussion is basically about revoking minimum wage laws. How useless of an argument would it be to say "paying less than minimum wage is already illegal, so we can revoke the anti-collusion laws?"

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#166

Post by jrmurad »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #162
jrmurad wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"un-construct it... drag it out behind the shed and shoot it." Can you "un-construct" this newspeak for us? It sounds like you're advocating that you or some other force besides free and voluntary trade should literally shut down private businesses, possibly beating and robbing their owners in the process (as has been done historically)? Because there's some formula for determining "social value" which has "number of…

Humanity, a sufficient majority thereof, simply stops playing the game. Money was a concept. It is now ignored. Corporations were a concept. They are no longer believed in. Ownership is a bouncing cheque with nobody caring to cash it. Most people stop playing "private business". You owned a railway? It's been automated. You owned a steel foundry? It's been automated. It answers to the world direct democracy, not to y…

You earlier referred to Business as a potential "parasite". Sounds like you are clarifying that you hope such a parasite will starve and wither away. Which is fine. Others might advocate taking proactive and violent measures to kill something which they deem to be parasitic.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#167

Post by patrickaljord »

nomat wrote: post #164
patrickaljord wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no idea why you imagined it would involve beating and robbing anyone. How do you think government would enforce that "revoking a business license" thing?

They would just revoke it because they are the issuers of the license in the first place. You can't take something that you already own from yourself by force.

What if I still want to exercise my business without a license? How would they enforce it? Hint: see what happens to abortion practitioners in countries where abortion is illegal or marijuana resellers where it's illegal etc.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#168

Post by jrmurad »

nomat wrote: post #164
patrickaljord wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no idea why you imagined it would involve beating and robbing anyone. How do you think government would enforce that "revoking a business license" thing?

They would just revoke it because they are the issuers of the license in the first place. You can't take something that you already own from yourself by force.

You're not taking into account that this "Issuer" claims some right to decide (by force, obviously) who can do business in the first place.

So if some entrepreneurial lady begins, say, arranging flowers or braiding hair... maybe she gets forced out of business for not having a license. Or maybe she does get a license but it is revoked for some arbitrary reason like the Issuer decides she's a "parasite" because she doesn't employ "enough" people. Either way, force is being used against her.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#169

Post by Frondo »

patrickaljord wrote: post #167
nomat wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would just revoke it because they are the issuers of the license in the first place. You can't take something that you already own from yourself by force.

What if I still want to exercise my business without a license? How would they enforce it? Hint: see what happens to abortion practitioners in countries where abortion is illegal or marijuana resellers where it's illegal etc.

The idea that business activity can be regulated or controlled by a state governing body is not new, is not controversial, and is also not robbery.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#170

Post by robryan »

chii wrote: post #145
drodgers wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government could achieve full-employment by drafting everyone or paying them to dig ditches then fill them in again, but that would be really wasteful. If there's actually nothing useful for some people to do (they can't find a job that supports them) then we should stop thinking of employment as a requirement for survival. If the economy can't find full-time roles for some people, then we as a society — though t…

> If there's actually nothing useful for some people to do then those people who cannot be useful will not survive - it's as simple as that. It takes resources to keep someone alive, and that resource must come from somewhere. I'd live for basic income to be viable, but i highly doubt it's viable, given that it amounts to altruism (from those people who own the means of production/automation). We'd have to have free…

What is the difference though between them being paid for unproductive work for the sake of having a job or being paid a basic income?
Post reply on HN