Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky • Hacker News Board

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#121

Post by blazespin » Sun, Apr 03, 2016, 12:43 AM UTC

mbfg wrote: post #56

I'm all for raising the minimum wage, temporarily it may help people for several years. The truth is the automation wave is coming quickly regardless of what people are paid. And it's not for just minimum wage jobs. Think about jobs like truck driver where there's probably several million people who count this as their profession in the US. In 10-20 years, that number will probably approach 0. There's a nasty new wor…

It will happen.. we still live in a democracy. Sanders didn't win, but he moved the democrats to the left.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#122

Post by dietrichepp » Sun, Apr 03, 2016, 12:43 AM UTC

x5n1 wrote: post #113

karmacondon wrote: post #111

I think the fundamental purpose of a business is to accomplish a task, not to employ people. For example, I don't care how many people are employed to keep hackernews running. I'm thankful for their efforts, but I don't care if it's one person, ten people, or one bot. Or how much any of them get paid. The only thing that consumers and businesses care about is the end result. If a job can be done by a machine, that's…

Full employment is one of the fundamental macroeconomic objectives. So yes as governments you do expect exactly that. You also expect to reduce disparity between the rich and poor. Why? Because you don't want people to revolt and create chaos. If unemployment goes up too much and there are no jobs, people will revolt and violence will occur... in which people will probably destroy your peaceful stable life... your fa…

I'm not sure what you mean by "fundamental macroeconomic objective". Surely the purpose of full employment is so the people who are employed can enjoy a certain standard of life.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#123

Post by twoodfin » Sun, Apr 03, 2016, 12:44 AM UTC

karmacondon wrote: post #88

atemerev wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, every business on the planet wants wages as low as possible. This is, of course, correct. On the other hand, every employee on the planet wants her wage to be as high as possible. This is also obviously true. This creates law of supply and demand. Google can't hire a decent software engineer for, say, $30000/year, because other companies will immediately offer more, and supply of talented software engineers is…

Why do you think minimum wage laws exist? It's because at one point in our nation's history, businesses implicitly colluded to set wages low. They have more power in wage negotiations than workers do, because there are generally people who can afford to do unskilled labor for very small amounts. Businesses got greedy and took that too far, offering people wages far beyond a minimum standard of living. So in response,…

Why isn't this same story true with, say, the price of bread or gasoline?

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#124

Post by tomp » Sun, Apr 03, 2016, 12:45 AM UTC

x5n1 wrote: post #113

karmacondon wrote: post #111

I think the fundamental purpose of a business is to accomplish a task, not to employ people. For example, I don't care how many people are employed to keep hackernews running. I'm thankful for their efforts, but I don't care if it's one person, ten people, or one bot. Or how much any of them get paid. The only thing that consumers and businesses care about is the end result. If a job can be done by a machine, that's…

Full employment is one of the fundamental macroeconomic objectives. So yes as governments you do expect exactly that. You also expect to reduce disparity between the rich and poor. Why? Because you don't want people to revolt and create chaos. If unemployment goes up too much and there are no jobs, people will revolt and violence will occur... in which people will probably destroy your peaceful stable life... your fa…

> Full employment is one of the fundamental macroeconomic objectives

Except for kids/students, and retired people. Nothing is preventing us from studying until we're 30 and retiring at 35 - if only the minority of the population can be productive enough (with the help of machines, obviously) to produce enough for the rest.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#125

Post by notatoad » Sun, Apr 03, 2016, 12:45 AM UTC

davidiach wrote: post #5

Thought experiment. If the government will start forcing your employer to pay you, lets say 70% more than you currently make beginning next month (if they want to keep you), would you be worried about losing your job? Oh, and let's not forget, nobody else will be allowed to hire you from that point on if they don't pay you at least that amount that your current employer will be forced to pay you from now on.

And the other thought experiment: you're currently making 70% more than somebody who holds significantly less responsibility than you do, and has significantly less skill than you.

If the salary their position pays is increased to match your salary, what are you going to do?

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#126

Post by holografix » Sun, Apr 03, 2016, 12:48 AM UTC

oconnore wrote: post #41

cornholio wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are essentially making the luddite case. The counterargument usually goes like this: yes, people would be fired and there will be serious pain in the short run; however the machines will drastically improve productivity, therefore reduce prices, so real wages will go up along with demand and the extra income not spent on, say, buying feed stock for your horse, will go in creating other jobs and economic sectors t…

> You are essentially making the luddite case. I'm not, I'm just countering some "don't worry, everything will be fine" idealism. I don't think we should halt progress, but I do think we should be more intentional about how we go about it. There is not currently a solution on the table to address mass un/under-employment caused by near-term automation. Basic income is thrown around, but even if enacted, does not chan…

Completely agree. Can't help myself from thinking that the "continuous economic growth" supported by an ever growing population size is a broken paradigm. The more automation the less people will have an intrinsic value to society unless extremely highly educated/specialised.

"Normal" people simply won't be needed and according to liberal capitalism, they'll quickly be marginalised.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#127

Post by blazespin » Sun, Apr 03, 2016, 12:48 AM UTC

eximius wrote: post #55

What happens when automation displaces a sufficient portion of the unskilled workforce that their value is less than 'minimum wage'? In an increasingly technical and automated society, what do we do about those who cannot adapt or become skilled enough to work in the increasingly technical workspace? We can either manufacture menial, useless jobs or admit to ourselves that HAVING to work is not necessary. We NEED to…

we already are exploring it in the form of food stamps, tax credits, guaranteed student loans, etc. I agree, we should be pushing more though.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#128

Post by JulianMorrison » Sun, Apr 03, 2016, 12:53 AM UTC

I don't want employment, and hell no I definitely don't want full employment, just the opposite. I want us as a species to transition to a leisure society with the ick automated away, and the only jobs humans do being ones humans would love to do for the sheer fun of it.

Because a minimum wage has a loophole for "not employed at all", it isn't good enough. A Basic Income has no such loophole, and will allow poor people to reject awful jobs, forcing them to be automated.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#129

Post by drodgers » Sun, Apr 03, 2016, 12:54 AM UTC

mangeletti wrote: post #101

oconnore wrote: post #3

Here is the critical section of the article: > What about the workers thrown out of jobs by the new robo-waiters? Many would get new jobs, though the way this would work is often ignored. > Most restaurants would keep longer hours (they're paying for the rent and the robots anyway), meaning many workers would get a raise and change shifts. No, the workers are now fired. They don't get a raise. > The advanced robo-res…

I hereby give you an honorary 1000 karma. Reading this article disgusted me. I'm not a "republican" or "democrat", or anything else for that matter, but I have some intelligence and sense. Arguing that raising minimum wage will some how lead to more prosperity is the same thing as stating "people with minimum wage jobs currently have prosperity". The minimum is the minimum, no matter how high we raise it. The only th…

Hi, Australian here. Our nominal prices (in AUD) are about the same as in the US (in USD) and our minimum wage is $17.29 an hour (+ 25% for casual employees). People who make minimum wage here aren't struggling to survive like they are in the US; the minimum wage is actually liveable.

Prices don't just rise when the minimum wage does. Firstly, people who make minimum wage make up a small proportion of overall income (something something 1% something something). Secondly, prices vary mostly because of the price of inputs and the demand for the product, not the overall wage level; if anything, prices of locally produced, labour-intense goods will rise a little because labour is now more expensive (not because some customers have a little more money).

I understand that your brother might not like the social stigma of making minimum wage again, but make not mistake; he will have more purchasing power than before.

YOu didn't bring it up, but the strongest criticism to make about a higher minimum wage is that it will leave some people with better paying jobs and some people with no jobs.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#130

Post by JulianMorrison » Sun, Apr 03, 2016, 12:56 AM UTC

karmacondon wrote: post #111

I think the fundamental purpose of a business is to accomplish a task, not to employ people. For example, I don't care how many people are employed to keep hackernews running. I'm thankful for their efforts, but I don't care if it's one person, ten people, or one bot. Or how much any of them get paid. The only thing that consumers and businesses care about is the end result. If a job can be done by a machine, that's…

Business is a social construct and we can un-construct it if it proves no longer to be the socially valuable way to do things.

It's there to serve humans. if it doesn't do that, it's a parasite, drag it out behind the shed and shoot it.