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Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

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Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#111

Post by karmacondon »

I think the fundamental purpose of a business is to accomplish a task, not to employ people. For example, I don't care how many people are employed to keep hackernews running. I'm thankful for their efforts, but I don't care if it's one person, ten people, or one bot. Or how much any of them get paid. The only thing that consumers and businesses care about is the end result.

If a job can be done by a machine, that's fine. People will find new forms of employment. Or they won't. But we can't expect businesses or consumers to misallocate their resources for the sake of someone's job.

Fortunately, fully automating the process of driving or running a restaurant is decades away. We have time to implement a basic income. Or just come up with more ways to employ people. The number of available jobs is limited only by imagination. "Instagram Photo Producer", "Online Forum Discussion Facilitator", "3D Printed Object Finisher". Someone can pay someone else to do any given thing, and now that's an occupation. "Potential Job Titles" isn't a finite list, and we can't ever run out of them.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#112

Post by greeneggs »

protomyth wrote: post #80
deegles wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read somewhere that the amount of people employed in the transportation industry is roughly equal to the tech industry. If 75% or more become redundant, where will they go? Certainly not the restaurant industry... One theory I have about all of the coding "boot camps" popping up is that they are preparing for an exodus of people from the next job sector to be automated/eliminated (auto-lated?).

If you look at the most popular job in each state, you will find truck driving is either #1 or pretty high on the list.

Citation: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/05/382664837/map-t...

The prevalence of secretaries from 1984-1988 is interesting, too.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#113

Post by x5n1 »

karmacondon wrote: post #111

I think the fundamental purpose of a business is to accomplish a task, not to employ people. For example, I don't care how many people are employed to keep hackernews running. I'm thankful for their efforts, but I don't care if it's one person, ten people, or one bot. Or how much any of them get paid. The only thing that consumers and businesses care about is the end result. If a job can be done by a machine, that's…

Full employment is one of the fundamental macroeconomic objectives. So yes as governments you do expect exactly that. You also expect to reduce disparity between the rich and poor. Why? Because you don't want people to revolt and create chaos. If unemployment goes up too much and there are no jobs, people will revolt and violence will occur... in which people will probably destroy your peaceful stable life... your factory... and your government. So yes the government has to as its objectives solve these issues. If they don't then people have the right to get rid of such a government, and take all your wealth and means of production.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#114

Post by SEJeff »

dragonwriter wrote: post #106
mangeletti wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hereby give you an honorary 1000 karma. Reading this article disgusted me. I'm not a "republican" or "democrat", or anything else for that matter, but I have some intelligence and sense. Arguing that raising minimum wage will some how lead to more prosperity is the same thing as stating "people with minimum wage jobs currently have prosperity". The minimum is the minimum, no matter how high we raise it. The only th…

Minimum wage increases, experience has shown, put upward pressure on wages generally. It is not the case that everyone making between the old minimum wage and the new minimum wage ends up at the new minimum after the change.

Source? I'd like to read up on that.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#115

Post by zeta0134 »

Chinjut wrote: post #87
oconnore wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are essentially making the luddite case. I'm not, I'm just countering some "don't worry, everything will be fine" idealism. I don't think we should halt progress, but I do think we should be more intentional about how we go about it. There is not currently a solution on the table to address mass un/under-employment caused by near-term automation. Basic income is thrown around, but even if enacted, does not chan…

The solution I'd like to see: Enact basic income AND change the fact that our culture views work ethic (narrowly defined in terms of market income) ~= value.

I don't think work ethic = value is ever going to go away to be honest. People will always value hard workers, and rightly so, because hard workers get things done and problem solved.

However, I don't necessarily think that work ethic needs to equal basic income. That homelessness is even a thing is a symptom of this world view; we are in a society that is more than capable of dealing with some problems in the most poverty stricken parts of the world, and yet we don't, because we say these people have no work ethic, and therefore they don't deserve to be clean, to be fed, to have access to sanitary facilities.

However we end up at a solution to this problem, I'm open to explore. I'm sick of us criminalizing the lazy, because the consequence is to also criminalize the disabled, the elderly, the mentally disabled, and occasionally the perfectly great, strong individuals who roll a poor lot in life and can't escape the system.

Laziness should mean a lack of respect, a lack of advancement, maybe a lack of entertainment and privilege. But the primary reason we have so many low wage jobs is because there is an incredibly huge incentive for people to work them; they have no other choice. If you don't work in this country, that's it. You're "worthless."

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#116

Post by zo1 »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #58
atemerev wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, every business on the planet wants wages as low as possible. This is, of course, correct. On the other hand, every employee on the planet wants her wage to be as high as possible. This is also obviously true. This creates law of supply and demand. Google can't hire a decent software engineer for, say, $30000/year, because other companies will immediately offer more, and supply of talented software engineers is…

How does this contradict the parent comment? Minimum wage obviously doesn't affect Google engineers, it affects the unskilled labor with near-limitless supply that you have mentioned. The idea is to prevent that kind of labor from becoming basically slavery.

>"it affects the unskilled labor with near-limitless supply that you have mentioned."

That "near-limitless" supply is the actual problem. Horrible as it may sound, but we're already talking about people and people's labour as a resource.

Unless you allow the market to regulate the supply, you'll always have an imbalance. In fact, we make it worse by letting it get to this point. If we were to let the market work on it's own now, with no government interference, people would probably be dying in droves from starvation (assuming charity doesn't help them along).

Attempting to make everyone's life not miserable (with e.g. minimum wage laws) skews the market and allows individuals to have (or have more) children than they would if they were living in a tough market. If occurring naturally, this sort of effect would be very subtle and not be a cause for misery. But, since we've already propped up a large population that would not have occurred ordinarily, we're stuck in a situation where outcomes are unthinkable.

I'd even argue that it's a self-reinforcing cycle at this point. The over-abundant supply pushes the wages down, making the situation even worse were it not for welfare/minimum-wage hikes. I think as a society, we have a moral obligation to wean this tap off, minimizing the harmful effects as the market adjusts while at the same time removing the perverse incentives that caused us to get to this point in the first place.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#117

Post by drodgers »

x5n1 wrote: post #113
karmacondon wrote: post #111

I think the fundamental purpose of a business is to accomplish a task, not to employ people. For example, I don't care how many people are employed to keep hackernews running. I'm thankful for their efforts, but I don't care if it's one person, ten people, or one bot. Or how much any of them get paid. The only thing that consumers and businesses care about is the end result. If a job can be done by a machine, that's…

Full employment is one of the fundamental macroeconomic objectives. So yes as governments you do expect exactly that. You also expect to reduce disparity between the rich and poor. Why? Because you don't want people to revolt and create chaos. If unemployment goes up too much and there are no jobs, people will revolt and violence will occur... in which people will probably destroy your peaceful stable life... your fa…

The government could achieve full-employment by drafting everyone or paying them to dig ditches then fill them in again, but that would be really wasteful. If there's actually nothing useful for some people to do (they can't find a job that supports them) then we should stop thinking of employment as a requirement for survival.

If the economy can't find full-time roles for some people, then we as a society — though the state — can just give them money to survive (a 'basic income') and let them do whatever they want with their time (including working part time jobs that wouldn't be able to sustain them on their own). It would be a much more productive and enjoyable use of their time than digging ditches :p

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#118

Post by EliRivers »

atemerev wrote: post #31
Retra wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "good argument" for having a minimum wage is that without it, wages will be pressured down , because every business on the planet wants wages as low as possible, and they generally have the means to achieve this. It has nothing to do with job creation: it's about having jobs that are not basically slavery. It's for job quality, not quantity. Besides, you're just assuming people should be employed at "fair market…

True, every business on the planet wants wages as low as possible. This is, of course, correct. On the other hand, every employee on the planet wants her wage to be as high as possible. This is also obviously true. This creates law of supply and demand. Google can't hire a decent software engineer for, say, $30000/year, because other companies will immediately offer more, and supply of talented software engineers is…

I downvoted for passive-aggressive bullshit and I don't care who knows it.

Re: Will minimum wage hikes lead to a huge boost in automation? Only if we're lucky

#119

Post by blazespin »

oconnore wrote: post #3

Here is the critical section of the article: > What about the workers thrown out of jobs by the new robo-waiters? Many would get new jobs, though the way this would work is often ignored. > Most restaurants would keep longer hours (they're paying for the rent and the robots anyway), meaning many workers would get a raise and change shifts. No, the workers are now fired. They don't get a raise. > The advanced robo-res…

Yes, people will be fired. Yes, that is fine. Yes, we need a minimum guaranteed income as a result of increased automation. Ideally, you'd get the income for going to school and learning.
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