Live data from Hacker News

What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

themarshallproject.org

51–60 of 120 posts

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sincere question. Why are you allowed to murder someone in self-defense, but not as a punishment for crimes? What moral code do you rely on that draws the line there? Why is that moral code more correct than one that draws the line between punishment and capricious violence? FWIW, I'm somewhere between you and OP in my thoughts. Definitely against the death penalty in practice , and somewhat ambivalent in theory. But…

>>Why are you allowed to murder someone in self-defense, but not as a punishment for crimes? The principle of Self Ownership, which is the basis of the philosophy of liberty https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9srplWe_QQ It would not be murder to protect your own life from the aggression of others. However any use of violence must be in proportion to the threat to your life. I.e I do not believe you have the right to ki…

Great answer. Do you consider lifetime imprisonment to be immoral for the same reason?

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#52

If the only reason for banning capital punishment in the USA was to prevent DA's from personally benefiting from "being tough on crime" in the next election for DA or governor, that would be enough. The entire American criminal system is beyond corrupt at this point.

It seems crazy -- there are so many independently-sufficient reasons to abolish the death penalty, argued from virtually any grounds, many of which otherwise are completely opposed.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the USA, innocence isn't grounds for an appeal. Actual, post-conviction DNA tests aren't a basis. Errors at trial are. So good lawyers find one. Jury instructions, evidentiary errors, procedural, etc., which is why money buys justice.

Ok then, what happens if new evidence comes up. For example, lets say you were accused of murder, and later on a video is found on some security camera that wasn't noticed before of someone else killing the person in question, so that you are 100% proven to NOT be the murderer? Would that be grounds for an appeal? I'm pretty sure it would be...

New evidence and errors in previous trials are the only reasons for a new trial.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#54
http://murderpedia.org/male.C/c/cooper-kevin.htm

Has the first hand account of Joshua Ryen, who also experienced what it was like to almost get executed.

I'm personally not a fan of the death penalty - I generally don't think it's worth the risk in effort, except perhaps in the case for people (eg. terrorist leaders) such that keeping them alive could result in a hostage situation.

But I do think it's a little unfair to have a case like this presented in a completely one-sided way.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#55

http://murderpedia.org/male.C/c/cooper-kevin.htm Has the first hand account of Joshua Ryen, who also experienced what it was like to almost get executed. I'm personally not a fan of the death penalty - I generally don't think it's worth the risk in effort, except perhaps in the case for people (eg. terrorist leaders) such that keeping them alive could result in a hostage situation. But I do think it's a little unfair…

The Ryen account is a little far down that page. Since we heard one story in anatomical detail, how about another?

"The first time I met Kevin Cooper I was 8 years old and he slit my throat. He hit me with a hatchet and put a hole in my skull. He stabbed me twice, which broke my ribs and collapsed one lung. I lived only because I stuck four fingers in my neck to slow the bleeding, but I was too weak to move. I laid there 11 hours looking at my mother who was right beside me.

I know now he came through the sliding glass door and attacked my dad first. He was lying on the bed and was struck in the dark without warning with the hatchet and knife. He was hit many times because there is a lot of blood on the wall on his side of the bed.

My mother screamed and Cooper came around the bed and started hitting her. Somehow my dad was able to struggle between the bed and the closet but Cooper bludgeoned my father to death with the knife and hatchet, stabbing him 26 times and axing him 11. One of the blows severed his finger and it landed in the closet. My mother tried to get away but he caught her at the bottom of the bed and he stabbed her 25 times and axed her 7.

All of us kids were drawn to the room by mom's screams. Jessica was killed in the doorway with 5 ax blows and 46 stabs. I won't say how many times my best friend Chris was stabbed and axed, not because it isn't important, but because I don't want to hurt his family in any way, and they are here.

After Cooper killed everyone, and thought he had killed me, he went over to my sister and lifted her shirt and drew things on her stomach with the knife. Then he walked down the hallway, opened the refrigerator, and had a beer. I guess killing so many people can make a man thirsty."

[EDIT: this is from Ryen's testimony in 2005.]

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#58

http://murderpedia.org/male.C/c/cooper-kevin.htm Has the first hand account of Joshua Ryen, who also experienced what it was like to almost get executed. I'm personally not a fan of the death penalty - I generally don't think it's worth the risk in effort, except perhaps in the case for people (eg. terrorist leaders) such that keeping them alive could result in a hostage situation. But I do think it's a little unfair…

The Ryen account is a little far down that page. Since we heard one story in anatomical detail, how about another? "The first time I met Kevin Cooper I was 8 years old and he slit my throat. He hit me with a hatchet and put a hole in my skull. He stabbed me twice, which broke my ribs and collapsed one lung. I lived only because I stuck four fingers in my neck to slow the bleeding, but I was too weak to move. I laid t…

You forgot some key info:

The sole survivor, Josh Ryen, had told a social worker in the emergency room that the murders were committed by 3 or 4 white men. Josh spelled his message by pointing at letters on a clipboard as he was unable to speak, but the social worker and medical staff observed that he was lucid and could spell his name and address correctly. Judge Fletcher wrote, "Deputies misrepresented his recollections and gradually shaped his testimony so that it was consistent with the prosecution's theory that there was only one killer." Jurors, however, said they disregarded Ryen's testimony because they believed he was confused and traumatized.

On June 9, a woman named Diana Roper called the Sheriff’s Department to tell them that her boyfriend, Lee Furrow, had come home in the early hours on the night of June 4. He arrived in an unfamiliar station wagon with some people who stayed in the car. He changed out of his overalls, which he left on the floor of a closet. He was not wearing a t-shirt that he had been wearing earlier in the day. He left the house after about five minutes and did not return. [Roper and her father] both concluded that the overalls were spattered with blood. Roper turned the overalls over to the Sheriff’s Department and told the deputy that she thought Furrow was involved in the murders. Roper later provided an affidavit stating that a bloody t-shirt found beside the road leading from the murder house had been Furrow’s. It was a Fruit-of-the-Loom t-shirt with a breast pocket. Roper stated that she recognized it because she had bought it for him. She also stated that a bloody hatchet found beside the road matched a hatchet that was now missing from her garage. [...] The Sheriff’s Department never tested the overalls for blood, never turned them over to Cooper or his lawyers, and threw them away in a dumpster on the day of Cooper’s arraignment."

Furrow had been released from state prison a year earlier. He had been part of a murderous gang, but had been given a short sentence in return for turning state’s evidence against the leader of the gang. The leader was sentenced to death. Furrow told friends that while he was part of the gang he killed a girl, cut up her body, and thrown her body parts into the Kern River."

We know you can implant false memories, especially in kids. If the cops decided Cooper was guilty it would have been easy to coach him into giving the testimony above.

I'm not saying he is innocent or guilty, just that there appears to be some doubt, much of it due to police sloppiness and misconduct.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#59

The family of four he brutally murdered might have had an opinion on that, too.

The family almost always vents their anger at whoever the police tell them "did it", even if the police are wrong. Often they persist in that belief after DNA evidence or video evidence proves conclusively that the police were wrong.

Re: What It’s Like to Almost Get Executed

#60

http://murderpedia.org/male.C/c/cooper-kevin.htm Has the first hand account of Joshua Ryen, who also experienced what it was like to almost get executed. I'm personally not a fan of the death penalty - I generally don't think it's worth the risk in effort, except perhaps in the case for people (eg. terrorist leaders) such that keeping them alive could result in a hostage situation. But I do think it's a little unfair…

Maybe Joshua Ryen remembered a different guy who looked like Cooper. Also, from the discussion of DNA evidence, I suspect that samples were mishandled, and crude tests were used. There's evidence that commonly used DNA markers don't distinguish non-white people very well.
Post reply on HN