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The Chinese Room Argument

plato.stanford.edu

41–46 of 46 posts

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#41
post #2

Seriously, why won't this 2+ decade old argument die? It's sophomoric and picked apart in second year cognitive systems classes by 19 year old children. It glaringly misunderstands and misrepresents. If people are genuinely interested in AI they should take a basic course in it at university or pick up a real book on the subject.

it won't "die" for the same reason that it's still used at university - both because it raise some interesting issues and because it played an important part in the historical debate over ai. also, if you actually read the link you'll see that it's placed in context, with the "systems reply" explained in detail.

As long as people can put it in context.

To a software person who's given AI some thought, the holes in Searle's argument are glaring. I had a very awkward conversation in college with a philosophy student who had just been taught it and was taking it very seriously; I guess they have a lot of reverence for Great Thinkers who hand down Deep Insights, whereas to me this guy Searle sounded like an imbecile.

Despite my initial horror at someone's taking the Chinese Room argument at face value, I realize it raises interesting questions about the chasm between AI's starting point (e.g. playing chess with S-expressions) and real human-like intelligence. I think we have more perspective on the problem these days for countless reasons -- work on understanding how subsystems in the brain work, being able to build or simulate neuron-like systems, applying powerful computers to a wide variety of problems.

The big questions that remain are ones like whether a human brain can be simulated; how brain-like a machine would have to be to "understand" things -- self-aware? neural-network-like? embodied? -- and to what extent constructs like language reflect deep structure of the mind (i.e. human firmware we have to reverse engineer and duplicate) rather than universal logical constructs.

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#42
post #27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" It's trivial to show that a Chinese Room that could converse for more than 15 minutes would have to contain more elementary particles than the entire planet." I don't believe it, can you show it?

Since you could fit someone who speaks Chinese in the room... assuming people are made of elementary particles.

I still don't believe you. So the numbers are made up? "15 minutes" -> "entire planet"? How much for 10 minutes? And for 1 minute? Is that obvious too?

So you think it's very obvious that it's impossible to build a chatbot that speaks chinese for 15 minutes in a computer like the one I'm using now (even one that claims to be a child for example). And why couldn't we just clone a Chinese person brain and say it's a computer? Why do you think a brain snapshot would require the size of a planet?

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#43
post #42
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you could fit someone who speaks Chinese in the room... assuming people are made of elementary particles.

I still don't believe you. So the numbers are made up? "15 minutes" -> "entire planet"? How much for 10 minutes? And for 1 minute? Is that obvious too? So you think it's very obvious that it's impossible to build a chatbot that speaks chinese for 15 minutes in a computer like the one I'm using now (even one that claims to be a child for example). And why couldn't we just clone a Chinese person brain and say it's a co…

I still don't believe you.

Ah, sorry, the "more elementary particles than the entire planet" claim wasn't made by me. My first comment was too vague, here is another try:

Yes, it sounds like a very strange claim, since isn't biological material made from elementary particles, and clearly you could fit someone who speaks Chinese into the room. Obviously that assumes that people are made of elementary particles, but if someone is going to argue that, I'm going to need a better definition of elementary particles to make any progress.

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#44
post #23
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the only real objection to Searle. People get handwavey in these thought experiments, that we can just assume that such a system can be built. Well, no, we can't, not even in theory. It's trivial to show that a Chinese Room that could converse for more than 15 minutes would have to contain more elementary particles than the entire planet. There is an analogy here with Chomsky's linguistics. You can di…

" It's trivial to show that a Chinese Room that could converse for more than 15 minutes would have to contain more elementary particles than the entire planet." I don't believe it, can you show it?

I've read up a little more on the Chinese Room and I retract my argument. I misunderstood the idea.

I thought Searle was asserting that a human mind can be simulated by a dumb program that only provided cached responses. It's easy to show there are more than 10e50 possible conversational paths in a 15 minute conversation (even a chess game has that many, and conversation is more complex than chess), and there are only 10e50 atoms on earth.

But it seems Searle's real argument was that the man inside the box is performing all the actions of an artificially intelligent computer program, just with pencil and paper. Humans clearly perform such actions with just a few pounds of brain matter. Even if the Chinese Room operator requires continent-wide resources, such difficulties don't address the essence of Searle's argument.

He seems to be asserting there's something special about the brain called "intentionality" which is unlike a computer running an algorithm. He might be right, but there seems to be no evidence for such a thing, or any way to prove that an entity which claimed "intentionality" didn't really have it.

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it won't "die" for the same reason that it's still used at university - both because it raise some interesting issues and because it played an important part in the historical debate over ai. also, if you actually read the link you'll see that it's placed in context, with the "systems reply" explained in detail.

As long as people can put it in context. To a software person who's given AI some thought, the holes in Searle's argument are glaring. I had a very awkward conversation in college with a philosophy student who had just been taught it and was taking it very seriously; I guess they have a lot of reverence for Great Thinkers who hand down Deep Insights, whereas to me this guy Searle sounded like an imbecile. Despite my…

>I guess they have a lot of reverence for Great Thinkers who hand down Deep Insights, whereas to me this guy Searle sounded like an imbecile.

Have you ever read the Chinese room article? It's pretty clear if you read it that Searle isn't an imbecile. The vast majority of "refutations" of his argument simply miss his point entirely. (Which is basically, "Why on Earth would you think that merely performing the same computations as a human brain could cause conscious experiences?")

> I guess they have a lot of reverence for Great Thinkers who hand down Deep Insights

Really? I've never met any philosophy students who fit that description.

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#46
post #6
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, this argument have existential consequences: either it's not possible to emulate mind on turing machine or we don't have qualia and consciousness (it's just the illusion, that we have). And i don't like the latter.

The argument is so flawed I don't even know where to beging. It's the room that is conscious not the person. Of course the person can't speak Chinese. Neither can the neuron in my brain.

That's the "systems reply", which Searle addressed in his original article. So I'm not sure which argument you're talking about.
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