Live data from Hacker News

The Trouble with CloudFlare

blog.torproject.org

111–120 of 361 posts

Re: The Trouble with CloudFlare

#111
post #96

Tor has acknowledged their "botnet problem" since at least 2013: https://research.torproject.org/techreports/botnet-tr-2013-1... That same paper walks through the challenges of dealing with it and doesn't find any satisfactory solutions. As I wrote in our post on the topic, there's a trade off between security, anonymity, and convenience. CloudFlare provides security to our customers. We believe in the importance of…

Why don't you just drop IP-based reputation system for Tor IPs completely and develop something else for these IPs, something based on data from actual requests and responses? Because it sounds like you want to preserve an incorrect system and are pushing this problem on Tor.

Quoting from our post (https://blog.cloudflare.com/the-trouble-with-tor/):

At CloudFlare we've not explicitly treated traffic from Tor any differently, however users of the Tor browser have been more likely to have their browsing experience interrupted by CAPTCHAs or other restrictions. This is because, like all IP addresses that connect to our network, we check the requests that they make and assign a threat score to the IP. Unfortunately, since such a high percentage of requests that are coming from the Tor network are malicious, the IPs of the Tor exit nodes often have a very high threat score.

With most browsers, we can use the reputation of the browser from other requests it’s made across our network to override the bad reputation of the IP address connecting to our network. For instance, if you visit a coffee shop that is only used by hackers, the IP of the coffee shop's WiFi may have a bad reputation. But, if we've seen your browser behave elsewhere on the Internet acting like a regular web surfer and not a hacker, then we can use your browser’s good reputation to override the bad reputation of the hacker coffee shop's IP.

The design of the Tor browser intentionally makes building a reputation for an individual browser very difficult. And that's a good thing. The promise of Tor is anonymity. Tracking a browser's behavior across requests would sacrifice that anonymity. So, while we could probably do things using super cookies or other techniques to try to get around Tor's anonymity protections, we think that would be creepy and choose not to because we believe that anonymity online is important. Unfortunately, that then means all we can rely on when a request connects to our network is the reputation of the IP and the contents of the request itself.

Re: The Trouble with CloudFlare

#112

Tor has acknowledged their "botnet problem" since at least 2013: https://research.torproject.org/techreports/botnet-tr-2013-1... That same paper walks through the challenges of dealing with it and doesn't find any satisfactory solutions. As I wrote in our post on the topic, there's a trade off between security, anonymity, and convenience. CloudFlare provides security to our customers. We believe in the importance of…

As a developer I will direct my clients away from CloudFlare services as long as CloudFlare continues this sort of attack on Tor which is ultimately an attack on privacy.

  * facepalm *
No room for nuance, huh? Or appreciation for the position CloudFlare is in and their obligation to their clients?

How would you solve this? Abuse from Tor IPs is a known and documented problem. If you have a solution, I'll bet CloudFlare has a job opening.

Re: The Trouble with CloudFlare

#113

Tor has acknowledged their "botnet problem" since at least 2013: https://research.torproject.org/techreports/botnet-tr-2013-1... That same paper walks through the challenges of dealing with it and doesn't find any satisfactory solutions. As I wrote in our post on the topic, there's a trade off between security, anonymity, and convenience. CloudFlare provides security to our customers. We believe in the importance of…

Hi,

I'm completely sympathetic to your problem - Tor is used by lots of spammers - totally understandable to try to prevent this spam from hitting your customers.

But most of the services I run can't really be affected by this sort of spam (no public comment systems for example). I use CloudFlare on a few of my domains, if I don't care about bot traffic and just want to turn this CAPTCHA system off entirely, is there a way with just a pro account to do so? I appreciate the anti-DDoS protection and certainly having it automatically kick these CAPTCHAs on with only extremely high volumes of traffic could be appropriate, but enforcing them is just too much.

I have security level set to minimum, but recently spun up a hidden service because users were still getting CAPTCHA'd over Tor.

Re: The Trouble with CloudFlare

#114
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know Tor doesn't want to be in the network regulation business, but .... That is exactly why there is a Tor. Tor is for enabling anonymous communication. Now deciding who can do what or why would limit use and that would limit its ability to anonymous communication.

Definitely, but they shouldn't complain when the public Internet (Cloudflare) blocks them or views their traffic differently. Anonymity comes at a price, and this is one of them. I think TOR is an important project, but this blog post by them is completely ridiculous and ignores reality. Why should TOR get a pass on this when network operators need to protect their network from abuse? The choices are either 1) let th…

Complain is exactly what they should do. People should care about privacy even when it's other people's privacy.

Re: The Trouble with CloudFlare

#115

Tor has acknowledged their "botnet problem" since at least 2013: https://research.torproject.org/techreports/botnet-tr-2013-1... That same paper walks through the challenges of dealing with it and doesn't find any satisfactory solutions. As I wrote in our post on the topic, there's a trade off between security, anonymity, and convenience. CloudFlare provides security to our customers. We believe in the importance of…

Hi, I'm completely sympathetic to your problem - Tor is used by lots of spammers - totally understandable to try to prevent this spam from hitting your customers. But most of the services I run can't really be affected by this sort of spam (no public comment systems for example). I use CloudFlare on a few of my domains, if I don't care about bot traffic and just want to turn this CAPTCHA system off entirely, is there…

Yes, you can whitelist Tor. This is available at no cost for all customers regardless of plan level:

https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en-us/articles/203306930-D...

Re: The Trouble with CloudFlare

#116
post #60

Maybe I'm a cranky, old-school network operator, but this is a very cut and dry problem. Tor runs a network that is rife with abuse and fraud. Tor needs to clean up and police its network. If it doesn't, it will be put on blacklists and customers will take active measures to block traffic from it. This is no different than a network or AS that is spammer friendly, botnet friendly, carder friendly, etc. All of those n…

The main point of Tor is that nobody knows where the traffic comes from. Realize you're asking them to break their own service. Your premise seems to be that you can't be bothered to protect your networks so you want to put that responsibility on someone else. It's called intermediary liability and it's terrible because the intermediary has all the wrong incentives. You demand that the intermediary eliminate maliciou…

"...you can't be bothered to protect your network..."

Huh? Isn't this exactly what CF is attempting to do? And Tor traffic tends to be abusive so the good is caught up with the bad, but it's all in the name of protection.

Re: The Trouble with CloudFlare

#117

I don't know what the solution is here. One of my sites enjoys a ridiculous number of fraudsters trying to make purchases, many - but very much not all - from the tor network. The easy solution is to punish everyone and ban tor exit nodes from access, and woo, a significant reduction in my fraud rate. The way I justify this to myself is that the site only accepts payment via PayPal and/or credit cards, and paying wit…

This is where 3D Secure truly shines; instead of completely refusing a transaction, you can request the issuing bank (= bank of the card used to pay with) to accept the liability in case of fraud (normally, it's the merchant who has to give the money back). Usually the issuing bank will then request the customer for additional challenge, e.g. a 2FA token, a code in SMS, or just their birthday. Some don't even require…

That conversion rate tanking is real though, I don't buy anything that requires it, and we know that extra steps means fewer purchases.

Re: The Trouble with CloudFlare

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I'm completely sympathetic to your problem - Tor is used by lots of spammers - totally understandable to try to prevent this spam from hitting your customers. But most of the services I run can't really be affected by this sort of spam (no public comment systems for example). I use CloudFlare on a few of my domains, if I don't care about bot traffic and just want to turn this CAPTCHA system off entirely, is there…

Yes, you can whitelist Tor. This is available at no cost for all customers regardless of plan level: https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en-us/articles/203306930-D...

Thanks. Can I whitelist the whole internet (by using /0 perhaps?) using this method? I've seen people complaining about this issue on VPNs and such too.

Re: The Trouble with CloudFlare

#119
This is a terrible reply, it's basically say's "It's all your fault, we're all good over here."

They then either because they legitimately can't understand the problem, which would be scary, or because they're being stubborn fail to address the suggestions by cloudflare to address the issues.

Re: The Trouble with CloudFlare

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer I will direct my clients away from CloudFlare services as long as CloudFlare continues this sort of attack on Tor which is ultimately an attack on privacy.

* facepalm * No room for nuance, huh? Or appreciation for the position CloudFlare is in and their obligation to their clients? How would you solve this? Abuse from Tor IPs is a known and documented problem. If you have a solution, I'll bet CloudFlare has a job opening.

If CloudFlare would at least let their client decide by themselves, that would be an awesome start. Even if it's enabled by default.
Post reply on HN