Model 3 Unveiling [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Model 3 Unveiling [video]

#341

Post by 11402101 » Fri, Apr 01, 2016, 2:39 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #316

11402101 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supercharging network should be irrelevant in my mind. If you need to drive more than 200 miles away, you need ICE. Assuming you could get a 100% full charge in 30 minutes at a supercharger, and 210 miles of range at 60mph, you are driving 3.5 hours and standing around for 30 minutes. Meanwhile, ICE can get you 400 miles, or 6.5 hours of driving at 60mph, on a 15 minute gas fill up. Electrics are great for a lot of r…

I love how every time I bring this up, somebody feels the need to mansplain to me how impractical it is in reality, as if I'm not speaking from experience. I've driven my Model S on several long trips, including DC to Florida and back this winter. I'm planning a trip to Montreal this summer. At no point in this do I wish I had an ICE car for the trip, let alone "need" one. In fact, there's no other car (except maybe…

I'm not trying to "mansplain" to you at all, whatever that means, but it is always a joy to have your comments dismissed through meaningless terms by a Tesla owner. Being dismissive of others for having a differing opinion is just unproductive to turning people towards Tesla.

I am just trying to point out that to some people, standing and pointing at superchargers as some viable way to make it cross country is really dreadful, and yet people still try to sell them as though they are the most amazing thing. I have also recently driven from DC to FL. In all, it was about 1000 miles one-way. I had to stop for gas twice, filled up when I got there, and filled up twice on the way back. Let's say that adds 30 minutes each way to a 14 hour trip (and yes, you can certainly fill up, use the rest room, and sit down to eat in 15 minutes - it's not a 5 course meal, it's a roadtrip). If I compare that to having to stop every 200 miles - again assuming that you could get a 100% charge in 30 minutes, which AFAIK you don't, you get to 80% or so - you would need to stop 4 times on the way for 30 minutes each. You have now arrived 1.5 hours later than I did.

And honestly, what do you do for 30 minutes at each of these stops? If you left at 9am, you would stop for lunch at noon, second lunch at 3pm, dinner at 6, and second dinner at 9 in a Tesla. And then you're saying "you get a smooth, quiet ride that doesn't leave you tired at the end of the day's driving", but honestly, just buy a nicer car. What are we comparing, a $75000 Tesla and a $15000 Kia? There are so many wonderfully comfortable ICE cruisers out there, test drive an Acura TLX, quiet and comfortable, same price as a Tesla 3 with double the range.

I feel like we are in the early days where people really try to downplay and apologize for the charging issues on electric cars, but it's not the way it has to be. Musk showed that very amazing 'drive up battery replacement' thing awhile back, and then it just died. How awesome would it have been if that became reality, rather than just plunking down superchargers every couple hundred miles?

Sorry I don't mean to rant, it's just incredibly awkward trying to point things out when Tesla owners/fanboys are so excited and dismissive of anybody who prefers to drive with an ICE.

Re: Model 3 Unveiling [video]

#342

Post by dragontamer » Fri, Apr 01, 2016, 2:41 PM UTC

usaphp wrote: post #270

rconti wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but luxury is relative to class. If you think a 6 series is luxury, but a 3 series is not, .... what is your definition, exactly? A 3 series is luxury because its compared to smaller generic cars, where a 6 series is ALSO luxury because it's compared to larger generic cars. I'd never call a Porsche a luxury car because I consider them sports cars, even though many of their model lines are not particularly…

> What's hilarious here is that you call the CLA luxury I never called it luxury, I was referring to a link from wikipedia where it says it is a "luxury compact car". My original point was in response to a comment (that is now edited) that model 3 does not look luxury for what it costs. My point was that none of the cars in that price range look luxury if you compare them to a higher priced cars. "Luxury car", and "l…

The actual specs haven't come out, but based on the video, it looks like the Model 3 size is somewhere on the order of Ford Focus / BMW 3-series / Mercedes CLA size. (I do realize that's a pretty big range of cars, but I'm being vague on purpose because its hard to get accurate measurements from a youtube reveal)

The Model 3's trunk AND frunk are abnormally short, kinda reminds me of the Honda Fit in some ways: save on costs by cutting back on the trunk and front of the vehicle... but put emphasis on the cabin space so that things feel comfortable from inside.

I'm willing to bet that the car feels larger on the inside than it looks... but from the outside... comparisons to the Mercedes CLA / BMW 3-series seem appropriate. I'll have to wait for the damn thing to come out to know for sure of course.

But in any case, that means that the Model 3 should probably still be considered a luxury vehicle. Compact-size at $35,000 starting? Yeah, that's luxury-class cost.

Re: Model 3 Unveiling [video]

#343

Post by fumar » Fri, Apr 01, 2016, 2:45 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #249

dragontamer wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it'd be much better than any manual car reving up to 4000 RPM and then dropping the clutch. You can squeal the wheels of even low-power engines with that technique. Frankly, zero-to-sixty in 6 seconds WITHOUT shifting and with 100% standing torque is kind of... awful actually. I suspect the opposite, when a ICE engine hits 4000 to 6000 RPM and the torque kicks in, you'll be accelerating far stronger than the…

I'd go the opposite direction. As the owner of a Golf R (which competes with the STI and Focus RS), the 1-second-slower-to-60 Model 3 (this is the very base model, mind you.. no talk of dual engines or performance models yet) will certainly have less peak torque, but I think it will feel faster due to the linear nature of it. Having driven and ridden in a number of different-spec RWD Model S, the impression of accele…

Would you recommend the Golf R as daily driver - for someone who likes to drive? I currently have a 3.2 A3, its nice to have 6 cylinders, but I'm tentative about turbo 4 in the R. I gotta have a hatch.:) With that said, I have tested the Tesla S and the linear torque is different sensation compared to ICE. Totally agree with you on that, its the smooth power that feels faster. So, I ended up reserving the Model 3 because its closer my price range.

Re: Model 3 Unveiling [video]

#344

Post by rconti » Fri, Apr 01, 2016, 2:56 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #340

rconti wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Honda CR-Z is a compact 2-seater in the United States. A Toyota Prius is an economy sedan with a surprisingly large back seat. A Subaru BRZ is a small 4-seat sport coupe. Your comparison can't possibly be valid because it's all over the map. From what I've seen, it IS a small sedan in the vein of a 3-series of A4 (larger than a Civic, smaller than an Accord).

Some nitpicks: The CR-Z is a subcompact 2-seat hybrid hatchback. The Prius is a compact hybrid hatchback (NOT sedan). The BRZ is a 2+2 sport coupe (the back seat is nearly unusable).

I was focusing on the number of doors in pointing out how the parent's post didn't make sense. Thanks for the clarification, I don't know the exact vehicle classes obviously.

Re: Model 3 Unveiling [video]

#345

Post by wlesieutre » Fri, Apr 01, 2016, 2:57 PM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #209

gozur88 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully this turns out a little better.

What went wrong with Star Citizen?

The scope of the game has gotten very big with how much money they've raised, which means it's taking longer to develop that originally planned. Some people aren't thrilled with that.

As far as the Derek Smart guy that somebody linked, he's a nutter who likes the attention from his doomsday predictions of Star Citizen falling apart (it's the only reason anyone's every heard of him). Most famous for claiming last October [1] that Cloud Imperium Games would run out of money and collapse within 90 days.

Obviously it's been longer than that and development is still moving along. Alpha doesn't have a huge amount to do in the universe yet, but it's very playable. For example: the most recently flyable ship (Khartu-al) [2], and the much larger Starfarer [3] which is mostly done on the art side but not yet flying.

They've said Squadron 42 (single player campaign) will be out this year, with the multiplayer universe following sometime after.

[1] https://archive.is/Ofyjz

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNfsSUfxp0c

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxDIGQb2kOY

Re: Model 3 Unveiling [video]

#346

Post by rconti » Fri, Apr 01, 2016, 3:00 PM UTC

fumar wrote: post #343

rconti wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd go the opposite direction. As the owner of a Golf R (which competes with the STI and Focus RS), the 1-second-slower-to-60 Model 3 (this is the very base model, mind you.. no talk of dual engines or performance models yet) will certainly have less peak torque, but I think it will feel faster due to the linear nature of it. Having driven and ridden in a number of different-spec RWD Model S, the impression of accele…

Would you recommend the Golf R as daily driver - for someone who likes to drive? I currently have a 3.2 A3, its nice to have 6 cylinders, but I'm tentative about turbo 4 in the R. I gotta have a hatch.:) With that said, I have tested the Tesla S and the linear torque is different sensation compared to ICE. Totally agree with you on that, its the smooth power that feels faster. So, I ended up reserving the Model 3 bec…

I love, love, love the Golf. I'm not the kind of person who always needs a new car -- my other car I've had for 10 years, a Z3 M Coupe. But despite not having owned a ton of other cars, I've driven quite a few (and especially the ST/WRX/STI/etc), and the R is head and shoulders above the rest. The number one thing is it oozes quality -- just such a nice car, it would feel premium even if it wore a BMW badge; it's not just "nice for a VW". Performance is great, torque everywhere, handles great, great grip. Love it.

Re: Model 3 Unveiling [video]

#347

Post by raisedbyninjas » Fri, Apr 01, 2016, 3:04 PM UTC

mikeyouse wrote: post #142

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> almost free to run Legit question: How much does a Tesla cost to recharge? I mean assuming you do it in your home and not at a free charging station. Are we talking $1/charge? $5? 50c? I just want a frame of reference. I'm talking raw electricity only (and obviously based on some average rate).

The average battery size for the Model S is probably 85kWh (they sell them from 70 - 90), and average residential power rates in the US are ~$0.15/kWh. So the easy answer is, a Model S will cost ~$12.75 to "fill up". However, some places have residential rates closer to $0.08/kWh, or $7/tank. That's for 300mi range. They do sell lower capacity battery versions and the entry level Model 3 will likely have a 50kWh batt…

Does the Tesla come with charge management settings to specify how much and when it charges? Some residents have power plans with reduced or free electricity during off peak. Mine is free on weekends for example and I usually only drive 150 miles/week. I could theoretically charge for free and always have a least a hundred miles range during the week. It would be nice if I didn't have manually schedule this.

Re: Model 3 Unveiling [video]

#348

Post by mikeash » Fri, Apr 01, 2016, 3:04 PM UTC

11402101 wrote: post #341

mikeash wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how every time I bring this up, somebody feels the need to mansplain to me how impractical it is in reality, as if I'm not speaking from experience. I've driven my Model S on several long trips, including DC to Florida and back this winter. I'm planning a trip to Montreal this summer. At no point in this do I wish I had an ICE car for the trip, let alone "need" one. In fact, there's no other car (except maybe…

I'm not trying to "mansplain" to you at all, whatever that means, but it is always a joy to have your comments dismissed through meaningless terms by a Tesla owner. Being dismissive of others for having a differing opinion is just unproductive to turning people towards Tesla. I am just trying to point out that to some people, standing and pointing at superchargers as some viable way to make it cross country is really…

It's fine if you want to express a differing opinion. Where we have a problem is when you say stuff like "you need ICE." That's not a differing opinion, that's you making a blanket statement that includes me and is clearly wrong. Having a differing opinion is fine, trying to force that opinion on people who aren't you is a problem. Had you said, "It's not for me, I don't like stopping that often" then I wouldn't have even felt a need to reply. You talk about Tesla owners dismissive of anybody who prefers to drive an ICE, but I didn't do that. In fact, I explicitly called out a set of drivers who would have good reason not to like road trips in a Tesla. You're the one dismissing people who disagree, not me.

And then here you go, telling me about hypothetical numbers you've run for an actual trip I did. You want to know what mansplaining means? That's a perfect example. You're explaining something to me that I already know and that you know I know, and acting like you know it better than I do. You conclude that whole thing with "You have now arrived 1.5 hours later than I did" as if this is some sort of interesting new fact. I already said in my comment that charging slows you down by 10-15%. So what's even the point of restating that?

You actually stop more often for somewhat less time, because you charge faster at the lower end of the battery. Ideally, you arrive at 0% and charge just enough to get to the next charger. In reality you want a margin, but typical stops are more like arriving at 10-20% and leaving with 70%. I believe we stopped to charge 7 times on the way down, and 9 times on the way back (one extra was because we detoured to Orlando, and one was unnecessary but we stopped at the Costco in Woodbridge, VA and decided to take advantage).

What do you do at each stop? Well on the way down, at Richmond we bought a Christmas present. That stop was definitely just lost time. At Rocky Mount, we had lunch. At Lumberton, we used the bathroom and bought some snacks. At Santee we had dinner. At Savannah we didn't have much to do. The next day, we stopped at Kingsland, used the bathroom, and waited. At Port Orange, we had lunch. At West Palm Beach, we waited.

Is it ideal? Obviously not. Is it perfectly fine for many people? Yep. You mention Tesla's battery swap program. Do you know why it died? Because it's just not very popular among owners. Superchargers are good enough. They actually built a swap station along the busy LA-SF corridor, and it just doesn't get enough use to justify expansion.

Now, if you take a look at my description of the stops and say, ouch, that's not what I'd want to do, then that's totally fine. Just don't try to tell me what I need. If you find it "incredibly awkward" to point out to Tesla owners that this sort of thing isn't good enough for everybody, maybe it's because you're saying that it isn't good enough for anybody. If that's not what you intended to say, then you need to work on how you're saying it.

Re: Model 3 Unveiling [video]

#349

Post by dangrossman » Fri, Apr 01, 2016, 3:09 PM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #229

aerovistae wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if to suggest people wouldn't be willing to wait a year to get the 3 instead of the Bolt. Do you really think these two products have equivalent level of appeal? I'm sorry, I may be missing something re: specs, but can you point to where it says that the Bolt will go 0-60 in Also, does the Bolt have a nationwide supercharging network? Does it have autopilot? Does it have an astounding, unparalleled safety rating?

Sure. Planned 0-60 in under 7 seconds for the Bolt [1] with similar fast charging capability at suitable chargers. If we're going to split hairs over being a second faster off the line when it's already not even as fast as significantly cheaper cars, then I'm not sure what to say. The lack of a supercharger network is definitely a downside for Chevy, but for your average commuter that shouldn't be a major issue. Plea…

> similar fast charging capability at suitable chargers

All the DC quick chargers in the US have CHAdeMO plugs, while the Bolt will use the SAE Combo plug. Right now there's no US network of fast chargers the Bolt can use at all. The Nissan Leaf is the only non-Tesla EV on the road in meaningful numbers, and it uses CHAdeMO, which is why that's all anyone built.

Re: Model 3 Unveiling [video]

#350

Post by arprocter » Fri, Apr 01, 2016, 3:10 PM UTC

rsync wrote: post #152

suprgeek wrote: post #89

Very clean looks also: 215 Miles Range with 0-60 in 6secs, Seats 5 will have autodrive tech all for $35,000 Deliveries begin end of 2017 (Hopefully) This is truly a mass market full electric car. We may be seeing something on the lines of the iPhone - a category busting product.

"with 0-60 in 6secs" This part confuses me. The very fast 0-60 times that you see in electric cars are a function not of their massive engines or super tuned turbos, but of their instantaneous torque (as they are electric). Given that this is an electric car, and that its size and weight are commensurable to the (presumably) smaller electric motor, I would expect it to have similar 0-60 times. I just assumed that whe…

I wonder if this is to prevent it from stealing sales from the higher priced models - would as many BMW M3s get sold if the base 3 series was as quick?