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For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

blog.hackerrank.com

281–290 of 306 posts

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#281
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were on your country's IOI team, you shouldn't be complaining about whiteboard problems. I think the major flaw of interviews is that if you did competitive programming ever, they're super easy. If you did Olympiad training and are still bad at whiteboard/algorithms, I think that's actually a reasonable signal.

Spot on! Every good competition coder I've met loves the whiteboard part of the interview and would happily crack away at problems for hours.

If you think the only good coders are competitions coders... then put that in your posted job requirements:

"Must l-o-v-e solving hyperidealized problems with clearcut answers, under gratuitous time pressure, while being watched with others (who already know the answer). For hours on end. Because that's what we do all day here. Serial olympiadists, hackerrank aficciandos, and other competition coders only need apply."

It's really quite simple to do, and will (by drastically narrowing your candidate pool) make your filtering process much easier, I'm sure.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#282
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You feel that any use of that tool is indicative of some unredeemable flaw in the company as a whole. This is a good summary of my position, except that it's not unredeemable. They could just stop using short, standardized, timed tests as a candidate evaluation, and instead they could acknowledge that there is no effective substitute for actually speaking with candidates, probing them about their experiences, and d…

Yup, I still genuinely disagree with most of your points. Just not seeing the connection between using an interviewing tool and being a dysfunctional company. But like I said, spinning tires, etc. All the best to you going forward!

I think the problem is that you continue referring to it as an interview tool just because it is a thing that can be used for interviewing.

Making candidates stand on one leg and recite the alphabet backwards would also be an "interviewing tool" but it's not legitimate, just as short, timed, standardized coding tests are also not legitimate. Playing semantic games about whether it's an "interview tool" is not worthwhile. The question has nothing to do with whether it's logically possible to be used as part of an interview. The point is that it cannot provide the kinds of evidence that people claim it provides, and so continued usage of it for interviews can only be explained by other reasons, which is when it begins to be evidence of dysfunction.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#283
post #5

So, how did you get to where you are today? I’ve always been passionate about coding, starting from my early days at Olympiad teams in high school and ACM teams in college. Anyone who's made it onto an Olympiad team[1] of any significant geographical scale, in any category, shouldn't have to deal with this whiteboard nonsense. Maybe a few lightweight-to-medium rounds to verify that they are what they say they are. Bu…

> Anyone who's made it onto an Olympiad team[1] of any significant geographical scale, in any category, shouldn't have to deal with this whiteboard nonsense. Oh yeah? I've interviewed my fair share of self-righteous prima-donna "I shouldn't have to deal with you plebes" sorts before to know you'd better put them through MORE of this whiteboard nonsense rather than less. And if they get all huffy, you know that when t…

Well I don't look at Olympiad performance as credential per se -- not in the traditional sense (like admission to an elite school, say). It's only a special kind of a geek that gets drawn to these competitions during their formative years; typically the kind that doesn't give a shit about "credentials" in the usual sense.

In other words, exactly the "bright and humble" type you're looking for.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've had plenty of them remark "you are the only candidate that has answered that question correctly" and then never speak to me again. Stop right there :-) I think that's where you need to do some deep introspection. There's A LOT more to a job than technical aptitude. It appears that you're excelling in one aspect of the evaluation but failing in another. There's a reason WHY they're not following up. Find out wh…

Good advice. I know I've turned down candidates that aced the technical questions but were so opinionated that it seemed unlikely they'd able to work as part of the team.

Maybe they're not all that opinionated in real life. They just get nervous in interviews, and unconsciously feel the need to show their individuals in ways that they otherwise (under less confrontational circumstances) do not.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#285
post #5

So, how did you get to where you are today? I’ve always been passionate about coding, starting from my early days at Olympiad teams in high school and ACM teams in college. Anyone who's made it onto an Olympiad team[1] of any significant geographical scale, in any category, shouldn't have to deal with this whiteboard nonsense. Maybe a few lightweight-to-medium rounds to verify that they are what they say they are. Bu…

I see the whiteboard coding test as an attitude-test. If you have too much attitude to sit down and write some code for an hour, then you aren't someone I want in my company. It shouldn't be hard if you're skilled. Sorry to be that way, but that's the way I (and we) see it.

If you have too much attitude to sit down and write some code for an hour, then you aren't someone I want in my company.

Whiteboard sessions are typically done standing (an unusual posture for most people), in a non-interactive environment and importantly, in front of other people (which is quite different from coding, alone, in a development environment, in the sitting or standing posture of one's choice). Who also expect you to explain to them what you're thinking as you're coding, interrupt you with questions or hints, etc. An entirely different workflow from just sitting down and writing code.

Even so -- traditional whiteboard sessions might sort of be OK, if they kept it to a single hour. The thing is, these days, the sessions (whether using a whiteboard per se, or some tool like hackerrank) can typically go on for multiple hours, like 4-6, being stared at by 5-10 people throughout. And are sometimes very poorly coordinated (either the problem isn't properly stated... or it seems no one bothered to check that you've already done the first 2-3 hours of "idiot testing", and make you do it all over again when you get referred to another team, etc).

And this sometimes on other pointless exercises (like a full hour of solving pure logic puzzles, being administered to you by a fresh graduate).

At some point it just gets to be unnecessarily exhausting and humiliating. And no, it's not a symptom of an "attitude problem" if one starts to feel less than enthusiastic about the way some companies conduct these sessions.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#286
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, I still genuinely disagree with most of your points. Just not seeing the connection between using an interviewing tool and being a dysfunctional company. But like I said, spinning tires, etc. All the best to you going forward!

I think the problem is that you continue referring to it as an interview tool just because it is a thing that can be used for interviewing. Making candidates stand on one leg and recite the alphabet backwards would also be an "interviewing tool" but it's not legitimate, just as short, timed, standardized coding tests are also not legitimate. Playing semantic games about whether it's an "interview tool" is not worthwh…

That's not 'the problem'. That's the disagreement. You claim it's not a legitimate tool. I say that it is. We obviously disagree and this is going absolutely nowhere.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound unnecessarily angry and your interview style seems far more formal than it needs to be. Think their issue might be with you? ;)

You'd be wrong. A vast majority of people find me very personable. I'm only talking about this microcosm of human interaction.

That's the thing -- lots of personable, well-adjusted people do all kind of weird things when plunked into that bizarre "microcosm" of human interaction known as the hiring process.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#288
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is that you continue referring to it as an interview tool just because it is a thing that can be used for interviewing. Making candidates stand on one leg and recite the alphabet backwards would also be an "interviewing tool" but it's not legitimate, just as short, timed, standardized coding tests are also not legitimate. Playing semantic games about whether it's an "interview tool" is not worthwh…

That's not 'the problem'. That's the disagreement. You claim it's not a legitimate tool. I say that it is. We obviously disagree and this is going absolutely nowhere.

You say

> Just not seeing the connection between using an interviewing tool and being a dysfunctional company.

This is problematic because you're not representing my position. It's somewhat of a straw-man. You're saying that I'm saying that the use of some legit interview tool spells dysfunction.

But I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the use of an illegitimate interview tool (timed, standardized tests) is a sign of dysfunction.

Whether or not you see a connection between using an interview tool and dysfunction is irrelevant, because we would both agree that there's a connection between using an illegitimate tool and dysfunction.

So the disagreement happens at least one layer back, at the point where I claim that timed, standardized tests are not actually useful for determining who will be good at a job. The disagreement, and the whole discussion, has nothing whatsoever to do with "just using an interview tool."

I think it's very important to be pedantic about this, because in a lot of cases you keep referring to the timed tests as an interview tool, and speaking about them that way fails to acknowledge that the tests are not capable of producing the kinds of evaluation output necessary for actually determining who would be good at a job.

For example, a great engineer with loads of experience and glowing letters of recommendation about how effective they have been in previous roles might just be a very anxious timed test taker and tend to do badly on timed tests for reasons mostly of anxiety. Since the test is artificial and has no relationship to the actual work they would do if hired, rejecting them based on a failure on the test is a poor business decision.

It doesn't even have to be as extreme as an anxiety issue with test taking. A person could just simply disprefer working in a constrained, timed environment like a browser-based IDE with a literal clock ticking down. They might be a great developer, yet cannot even write FizzBuzz in that situation because it is so utterly and unreasonably alien compared to the manner in which they would do work in a real job.

The tests just simply are not legitimate ways of measuring programming ability. They do not control for all of the bespoke ways a person can appear bad via a timed test, yet still be good, nor do they account for all of the ways a person can appear good on a timed test, yet perform badly on higher-level thinking tasks, open-ended time management, or creative tasks like system design.

Very truly, the tests, and organizations like HackerRank, exist because it's a convenient fiction for HR and management, especially in companies that doesn't have very much of a technology staff to vet candidates. These places are happy to drink the HackerRank Kool-Aid because it gives them all kinds of plausible deniability about hiring the wrong people. It's very similar to the way that management consultants, far from actually functioning in any analytical capacity that benefits their client, really just exist to sort out internal power struggles through means of credential and prestige. It's very much a status-signaling sort of behavior. And it's even worse in the cases when a company adopts something like HackerRank just because some other, supposedly fancy, company adopted it.

Because of all of this and much more, it's just very critical to continue pedantically ensuring that no claim of the tests being valid, legitimate evaluation tools goes unchallenged.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only that were true. I'm a U.S. national event champion in Div. C Science Olympiad (Road Scholar), and I not only have to deal with whiteboard nonsense all the time, but also, the spouse never really believes that I know how to get anywhere from anywhere else. (Sure, argue with Siri/Google, rather than allowing that I might possibly know which direction north is.) Credentials are only as good as the trust other pe…

> I've had plenty of them remark "you are the only candidate that has answered that question correctly" and then never speak to me again. Stop right there :-) I think that's where you need to do some deep introspection. There's A LOT more to a job than technical aptitude. It appears that you're excelling in one aspect of the evaluation but failing in another. There's a reason WHY they're not following up. Find out wh…

It appears that you're excelling in one aspect of the evaluation but failing in another. There's a reason WHY they're not following up.

If he failed some other part of their interprocess -- that's fine, they can send a polite and professional rejection letter. Even a soulless form letter will do.

But to not follow up in any way with the candidate, after that? Unless the candidate vomits in the interviewer's lap, or something similar -- that's just pure rudeness, on the company's part.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#290
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably one of the most insensitive posts I've ever seen written on here. There are many people who have crippling anxiety and social phobias, and your post chalks that up to them having an "attitude".

Not to be harsh or anything, but this kind of proves the point. Crippling anxiety and social phobia are not things I would want in an employee, all else equal, because they will need to be able to communicate in meetings and present findings/work to different teams / executives. Reply: baseline social comfort is not a generic personality type.

Crippling anxiety and social phobia are not things I would want in an employee, all else equal,

It's not that their anxiety is crippling; it's that for various reasons, the hiring process is typically conducted in a way that is at best often careless and inconsiderate to the candidate -- and quite often needlessly stressful and confrontational.

In other words, the people who sometimes get tripped by such processes aren't demonstrating "crippling anxiety"; they're demonstrating perfectly normal, human traits.

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