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Iceland put top finance executives behind bars, but fears of cronyism remain

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Re: Iceland put top finance executives behind bars, but fears of cronyism remain

#41
post #22
post #4

There's a lot to read. Can someone explain the details of actual crimes for which they were convicted? The whole "finance crimes" always seem a little fuzzy. If you run up $70 billion in debt, for example, and need a bailout, is that a crime? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-29/puerto-ric... It almost seems like a game.

My uncle is one of the jailed, mentioned in the article. One of Iceland’s most respected lawyers and teacher at the University of Iceland has gone on paper, and on radio, and on TV, saying that the Al Thani trials did not make any sense, for more than one reason. The most obvious mistake was that by the time the case went from local courtrooms to the federal level the prosecution had completely switched the focus of…

If it's any consolation, using anti-terror laws against banks feels slightly, though just slightly, less intrusive and overblown than using the same laws against bin crimes. ("Dustbin Stasi" is the word).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3333366/Half-of-counc...

Re: Iceland put top finance executives behind bars, but fears of cronyism remain

#42
post #16

Exactly, the problem has got worse. Banks are larger and more centralised, the offenders unpunished know they can act with impunity, legislation is unchanged. Banking/ finance types now know that if they are losing money they must simply lose big enough to trigger more bailouts and the taxpayer pays. This is despotic anti-capitalism: they keep the winnings and losses are generational debt on which they again profit.…

"Austerity stagnates an economy".

How did overspending work out for Greece?

[ edit: I'd be glad to discuss substance. The admittedly rhetorical question stands. What is the evidence on overspending and growth? ]

Re: Iceland put top finance executives behind bars, but fears of cronyism remain

#43
post #6
post #4

There's a lot to read. Can someone explain the details of actual crimes for which they were convicted? The whole "finance crimes" always seem a little fuzzy. If you run up $70 billion in debt, for example, and need a bailout, is that a crime? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-29/puerto-ric... It almost seems like a game.

Market manipulation http://www.reuters.com/article/us-iceland-bankers-idUSKBN0LG...

How did they manipulate the market?

Re: Iceland put top finance executives behind bars, but fears of cronyism remain

#44
post #16

Exactly, the problem has got worse. Banks are larger and more centralised, the offenders unpunished know they can act with impunity, legislation is unchanged. Banking/ finance types now know that if they are losing money they must simply lose big enough to trigger more bailouts and the taxpayer pays. This is despotic anti-capitalism: they keep the winnings and losses are generational debt on which they again profit.…

"Austerity stagnates an economy". How did overspending work out for Greece? [ edit: I'd be glad to discuss substance. The admittedly rhetorical question stands. What is the evidence on overspending and growth? ]

Not taking sides here but there are many middle-grounds between austerity and overspending.

Re: Iceland put top finance executives behind bars, but fears of cronyism remain

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well no bankers anyway. Please point to the convictions. We don't throw people in jail because we don't like their business practices. The idea that the government wasn't absolutely salivating at the opportunity to throw some bankers in jail is one of the funniest things I read on the internet. People don't seem to understand that the government and banking industry are often at odds on many things. Of course, ofte…

Let's be honest, for every overworked DA who is ambitious enough to attempt to prosecute a banker, you will immediately have ten 6th year associates out of their top 1/3rd from UChic, Yale and Stanford willing to put in 90 hours because junior partner at Cravath or Skadden is so close they can taste it. TARP was absolutely necessary (we absolutely would have had a complete and total systemic failure had relief not be…

>Let's be honest

Yes, convicting these people would have been difficult (which speaks to the alleged crimes, in my opinion). Yes, the bank bailouts weren't a paragon of good sense. Hopefully lessons will be learned for the next time.

Perfectly valid arguments and far removed from "toss these chaps in prison". I don't want to live in that world.

Re: Iceland put top finance executives behind bars, but fears of cronyism remain

#48

Just to clarify, They were sent to prison for "market manipulation and fraud" which are crimes in many places, not just Iceland. They weren't sent to prison for being "bad bankers" which isn't a crime in Iceland or anywhere else.

To add to this, the fraud was pretty brazen. For example, these bankers [1] approved a loan to a shell company owned by the bank's insiders for the purpose of buying the banks shares. None of the large banks in the U.S. did anything like that. The closest we've had is the LIBOR scandal, where prosecution is certainly happening.

[1] http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-iceland-crisis-idUKBRE8BR0E...

Re: Iceland put top finance executives behind bars, but fears of cronyism remain

#49
post #16

Exactly, the problem has got worse. Banks are larger and more centralised, the offenders unpunished know they can act with impunity, legislation is unchanged. Banking/ finance types now know that if they are losing money they must simply lose big enough to trigger more bailouts and the taxpayer pays. This is despotic anti-capitalism: they keep the winnings and losses are generational debt on which they again profit.…

> GWBush style $1000 cheques

Note that none of those checks went to the poor or middle class, at least not with a value as high as $1000. All the $1000 checks were reserved for the relatively wealthy.

http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Bush-signs-1-3-trilli...

Re: Iceland put top finance executives behind bars, but fears of cronyism remain

#50
post #16

Exactly, the problem has got worse. Banks are larger and more centralised, the offenders unpunished know they can act with impunity, legislation is unchanged. Banking/ finance types now know that if they are losing money they must simply lose big enough to trigger more bailouts and the taxpayer pays. This is despotic anti-capitalism: they keep the winnings and losses are generational debt on which they again profit.…

> the offenders unpunished Unpunished...for what? What are the crimes? I mean, people were certainly punished financially when their banks equity was wiped out or bought for pennies on the dollar. > Quantative easing is bailouts by the backdoor. Please elaborate. > Keynsian economics got this right. Do you know the academic origins of QE?

The crime is wilful financial mismanagement, it took many forms: sub-prime morgages, LIBOR manipulation, fake AAA ratings, Goldman's advising its clients buy toxic assets to get them off the books, ... the list of actual crimes is huge and largely unprosecuted by the revolving door financiers/ regulators.

Turning a blind eye, wilful ignorance should not be an excuse but it is a succesful one.

Capitalism is self-interest - the idea of self-regulation is a nonsense, if one can make money and get away with it then someone will which is natural.

What is wrong is the continued lack of oversight, either by lack of regulation; or the regulators and regulated change places - the revolving door.

The economy is a golden goose, wealth is continually created, but if the money is hoarded, economies stagnate - no-one benefits, the goose is dead.

Quantative easing removes value from money by printing more, then gives it to the banks who hoard it.

Yes QE doesn't have to be bad, if the printed money recirculates, the problem is how it is done (no guarantees about lending from banks) - its origins doesn't stop them juking it to all heck.

The problem is not capitalism but weak government who give out money but negotiate only vague promises not guarantees.

As the voters are responsible for government then the electorate is ultimately responsible for this, but were they really given a choice ?

On a humerous note perhaps in times of crisis the government should be suspended and let the civil-service run things with out the costly and unecessary changes indulged in by the popularity contests.

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