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The Chinese Room Argument

plato.stanford.edu

11–20 of 46 posts

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#11
post #5
post #2

Seriously, why won't this 2+ decade old argument die? It's sophomoric and picked apart in second year cognitive systems classes by 19 year old children. It glaringly misunderstands and misrepresents. If people are genuinely interested in AI they should take a basic course in it at university or pick up a real book on the subject.

Because there are still too many Analytical Philosophers out there (Kuhn is the exception)

philwelch

So you prefér circular argumentation?

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#12
post #2

Seriously, why won't this 2+ decade old argument die? It's sophomoric and picked apart in second year cognitive systems classes by 19 year old children. It glaringly misunderstands and misrepresents. If people are genuinely interested in AI they should take a basic course in it at university or pick up a real book on the subject.

it won't "die" for the same reason that it's still used at university - both because it raise some interesting issues and because it played an important part in the historical debate over ai.

also, if you actually read the link you'll see that it's placed in context, with the "systems reply" explained in detail.

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#13
post #3
post #2

Seriously, why won't this 2+ decade old argument die? It's sophomoric and picked apart in second year cognitive systems classes by 19 year old children. It glaringly misunderstands and misrepresents. If people are genuinely interested in AI they should take a basic course in it at university or pick up a real book on the subject.

In my opinion, this argument have existential consequences: either it's not possible to emulate mind on turing machine or we don't have qualia and consciousness (it's just the illusion, that we have). And i don't like the latter.

It's not just your opinion ;) This argument is about the nature of consciousness more than anything. It fights for a "subjective ontology" of the mental and is not easily dismissed as the earlier commentator would like to believe. The rapidity of upvotes and apparent sympathy to that claim by members of this community is certainly understandable given that the stance is anti-verificationist and presents problems for a purely scientific explanation of consciousness, but imho at our current level of intelligence/intellectual evolution a purely scientific explanation is horribly dehumanizing and insufficient.

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#14
post #7

I've never been able to figure out how this (and most other philosophical arguments against AI) don't apply just as well to individual neurons. Though I suppose if one wants to frame it as an argument that neither computers nor human brains are capable of intelligence, I might be persuaded. In fact, for sake of argument, I claim that I am, in fact, just an elaborate system of symbolic manipulation with no actual comp…

I think the fact that the argument is equally applicable to the human brain gets at the heart of the general problem of consciousness, of which AI is just a special case. Consciousness is not an observable phenomenon (excepting one's experience of one's own consciousness), so it seems unlikely to me that we can ever understand it in terms of observable phenomena-- i.e. as a function/result of things like neurons or transistors.

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#15
I think you could make the same argument for lots of things computers do. Could Grand Theft Auto 4, including the character AI and per-pixel 3D rendering, be implemented by people following instructions on cards? Yes, because Turing machines yadda yadda. But it's inconceivable to non-programmers. The Chinese room argument is convincing for the same reason: doing something AI-like requires billions of steps and non-programmers can't imagine building up something that complex from primitive operations.

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#16
I don't understand why people are willing to even accept the premise. The system as described (a book of instructions for manipulating Chinese symbols) can't usefully answer the question "what time is it?"; why should I believe it could carry on a lucid-but-very-slow conversation in Chinese?

Imagine that also in the room is a triangle with four sides. Now the Chinese Room Argument disproves AI and geometry! What subject do you want to demolish next?

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#17
post #5
post #2

Seriously, why won't this 2+ decade old argument die? It's sophomoric and picked apart in second year cognitive systems classes by 19 year old children. It glaringly misunderstands and misrepresents. If people are genuinely interested in AI they should take a basic course in it at university or pick up a real book on the subject.

Because there are still too many Analytical Philosophers out there (Kuhn is the exception)

In at least one pretty important sense, Thomas Kuhn isn't "out there" any more. He's been dead since 1996.

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#18
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there are still too many Analytical Philosophers out there (Kuhn is the exception)

Trust me, analytical philosophers are the only thing protecting us from the likes of Hegel and Derrida. The purpose of philosophy is to protect us from bad philosophy.

> The purpose of philosophy is to protect us from bad philosophy.

Nicely put. I like Wittgenstein's way of putting it as well, "What is your aim in philosophy?--To shew the fly the way out of the fly-bottle." (Philosophical Investigations 309)

Re: The Chinese Room Argument

#20
post #2

Seriously, why won't this 2+ decade old argument die? It's sophomoric and picked apart in second year cognitive systems classes by 19 year old children. It glaringly misunderstands and misrepresents. If people are genuinely interested in AI they should take a basic course in it at university or pick up a real book on the subject.

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