How I Made a Cheap PCB • Hacker News Board

Re: How I Made a Cheap PCB

#21

Post by oddeyed » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:14 PM UTC

Anyone considering doing similar in the UK, try ragworm [1]. Low cost (and cool orange) PCBs. They are trying to position themselves as the community PCB provider who you should go to for low-volume jobs e.g. kickstarter prototypes, hobbyist projects, and presumably are hoping that those early prototypes grow into big orders for them.

Turnaround is 10 working days because they presumably combine lots of people's orders at once then cut them out.

I've had good experience with them but the big downside is that the front-page prices are for two-layer only. Also, obviously if you need them faster then try someone else. Their website is a bit odd too.

[1] http://ragworm.eu/

Re: How I Made a Cheap PCB

#22

Post by oddeyed » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:16 PM UTC

lucaspiller wrote: post #10

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here! But I think that is the point of the article. The best way to make a cheap PCB is to just buy one. And he's probably right. There are definite advantages to etching a PCB at home - if you make a mistake that you only discover on assembly, you can make a new run in hours instead of weeks - but soldermask, small vias, and small features are much easier at a real plant. And you won't beat the prices. He recom…

Does anyone have any recommendations for a PCB fab in Europe? i.e. where I don't need to wait 4 weeks.

I wrote a bigger comment too but Ragworm do (pretty cheap) 2-week turnaround. Only 2-layer by default though, get in touch with them for more.

Re: How I Made a Cheap PCB

#23

Post by diskcat » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:18 PM UTC

afandian wrote: post #8

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PCB business 5 miles away has US labor and associated costs. Compare the Chinese board to Advanced Circuits in the US - http://www.4pcb.com/ - you can't get anything without spending over $100.

Maybe $100 is what it should cost (assuming some kind of ethical baseline for labour standards and environmental damage).

If people in China are willing to work for a lower labour standards I don't see why I shouldn't buy from them.

They are already making huge sacrifices working in terrible conditions because they weren't lucky enough to be born in the US or western europe et al. Chinese workers are very smart and hard working, so their position in life is not based on their ability but simply bad luck (relative to people born in the US etc.) The least I could do is buy their labour so that they may improve their lives. If I bought from a US companies most of the money would go to a rich 1% new yacht and new iphones for his daughters. I would rather feed a poor chinese worker family and send a youngster to school.

Re: How I Made a Cheap PCB

#24

Post by daniel-cussen » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:19 PM UTC

diskcat wrote: post #19

madengr wrote: post #3

Nice, instead of supporting the PCB business 5 miles away, send it to China. The copper not on your PCB is probably floating down some Chinese river, hence "Dirty PCB".

>Nice, instead of supporting the PCB business 5 miles away, send it to China. I don't see why he should support somebody who charges 5x the competitor. Im not gonna pay $20 for a jar of peanut butter because the factory owner lives 5 miles from me.

Ok, you aren't, but I might. And others too: witness the popularity of otherwise ineconomical farmer's markets, for instance. It supports local industry, which "keeps money in the family" to a large extent (and protects from predatory pricing down the road), and connects with the local industrial community more. You never know when they might know the person that can help you out with whatever glitch. Except when they're on the other side of the world: then you know. You know it won't happen.

Locality matters. Love thy neighbor, because they may reciprocate and their neighbor, surprise, is you.

Re: How I Made a Cheap PCB

#25

Post by diskcat » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:20 PM UTC

takno wrote: post #4

Could easily have been titled "no way back for America: how even small-time hobbyists can outsource to China now"

It hasn't been long since somebody told me that unless you do 10000x item runs it's not worth it.

I wonder if this low unit cost for small number thing is a recent development.

Re: How I Made a Cheap PCB

#26

Post by vongomben » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:22 PM UTC

david-given wrote: post #11

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here! But I think that is the point of the article. The best way to make a cheap PCB is to just buy one. And he's probably right. There are definite advantages to etching a PCB at home - if you make a mistake that you only discover on assembly, you can make a new run in hours instead of weeks - but soldermask, small vias, and small features are much easier at a real plant. And you won't beat the prices. He recom…

Do you know any places that do assembly as well? My soldering skills are approximately good enough to do 0.1 inch pitch pins about 90% of the time, which isn't really good enough for surface-mount, and most modern microprocessors don't come in anything else.

You should try Fusion PCBA service[1] from Seeed. You have to use theiir Eagle library and if you happen to use other components they'll manage to find themselves with no charge

[1] http://www.seeedstudio.com/service/index.php?r=pcb

Re: How I Made a Cheap PCB

#27

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:23 PM UTC

oddeyed wrote: post #21

Anyone considering doing similar in the UK, try ragworm [1]. Low cost (and cool orange) PCBs. They are trying to position themselves as the community PCB provider who you should go to for low-volume jobs e.g. kickstarter prototypes, hobbyist projects, and presumably are hoping that those early prototypes grow into big orders for them. Turnaround is 10 working days because they presumably combine lots of people's orde…

[deleted]

Re: How I Made a Cheap PCB

#28

Post by madengr » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:25 PM UTC

diskcat wrote: post #23

afandian wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe $100 is what it should cost (assuming some kind of ethical baseline for labour standards and environmental damage).

If people in China are willing to work for a lower labour standards I don't see why I shouldn't buy from them. They are already making huge sacrifices working in terrible conditions because they weren't lucky enough to be born in the US or western europe et al. Chinese workers are very smart and hard working, so their position in life is not based on their ability but simply bad luck (relative to people born in the U…

That US PCB manufacturer is also sending his kid to school, paying state and federal taxes, SS, healthcare for employees, and probably allot for hazardous waste service. What makes you think the Chinese PCB manufacturer is not in the 1%; just assumption the US manufacturer is.

Re: How I Made a Cheap PCB

#29

Post by cillian64 » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:29 PM UTC

lucaspiller wrote: post #10

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here! But I think that is the point of the article. The best way to make a cheap PCB is to just buy one. And he's probably right. There are definite advantages to etching a PCB at home - if you make a mistake that you only discover on assembly, you can make a new run in hours instead of weeks - but soldermask, small vias, and small features are much easier at a real plant. And you won't beat the prices. He recom…

Does anyone have any recommendations for a PCB fab in Europe? i.e. where I don't need to wait 4 weeks.

If you pay DirtyPCBs some more money for decent shipping you can get your board in about two weeks. A week for fab, a few days for shipping. $14 for the boards, $14 for the shipping. It's still very cheap for very good boards, and even cheaper if you can batch up a few projects and combine shipping.

Re: How I Made a Cheap PCB

#30

Post by swsieber » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:32 PM UTC

daniel-cussen wrote: post #24

diskcat wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nice, instead of supporting the PCB business 5 miles away, send it to China. I don't see why he should support somebody who charges 5x the competitor. Im not gonna pay $20 for a jar of peanut butter because the factory owner lives 5 miles from me.

Ok, you aren't, but I might. And others too: witness the popularity of otherwise ineconomical farmer's markets, for instance. It supports local industry, which "keeps money in the family" to a large extent (and protects from predatory pricing down the road), and connects with the local industrial community more. You never know when they might know the person that can help you out with whatever glitch. Except when the…

I would argue that part of the farmer's market is the experience of the setting and the fact that the food is (usually) fresh - much more than anywhere else.

Edit: My point is that I go to farmer's market for the experience, not to support the local farmers. It just so happens that the locals are the best are providing that experience. I do have to admit though that wanting to support the local farmers may have bootstrapped the farmer's market - or it may have survived through the rise of grocery stores.

And even with all that, going to farmer's market is splurging for me.