For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies • Hacker News Board

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#131

Post by pklausler » Wed, Mar 30, 2016, 11:48 PM UTC

copperx wrote: post #117

pklausler wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that lying to a candidate is unethical and unfair. You can get similar results without crossing that line by asking questions like "can this be made faster?" and "is this correct?", soliciting proofs of lower bounds on asymptotic complexity and loop invariants (respectively). But you shouldn't tell a candidate that their code is broken when it isn't. Interviewing is stressful and scary -- don't make it worse…

> soliciting proofs of lower bounds on asymptotic complexity A mathematical proof on the lower bound? is that a common request and something I should prepare for in an interview?

If I ask you whether your sort can be made faster, and you can make a credible case that it's O(n log n), so no, I'm happy.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#132

Post by eric_h » Wed, Mar 30, 2016, 11:50 PM UTC

soham wrote: post #116

deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

There is only one way to toughen up: Practice. Be it interviews or sports. Be it negotiations or cooking. Practice and practice perfectly. 1. Take mock interviews from experienced engineers Go one topic at a time e.g. Recursion or Trees or DP or Multithreading etc. Before you walk into the interview, practice well. Do at least 20 problems on that topic, if not more. 2. Do practice interviews at companies you don't wa…

> Nobody explains this better than the meth guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1WiCGq-PcY

That clip just increased my already substantial respect for Bryan Cranston, though I feel as though calling him the "meth guy" does him a disservice. Yes, Breaking Bad brought him a great deal of exposure, but I think that even his role in Malcolm in the Middle showed how capable he is as an actor. The fact that he performed both roles excellently is also a testament to his skills.

He's also won a Tony, and was nominated for a few director awards. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_nominations...)

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#133

Post by frcknfrckn » Wed, Mar 30, 2016, 11:54 PM UTC

p4wnc6 wrote: post #129

frcknfrckn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company looks like garbage though, why are you applying?

If the candidates look like garbage, why are you screening them? You can't always tell. You begin part of the process, then the company says how great their Agile teams are, or how "collaborative" their open-plan surveillance workspace is, or they invite you to do a HackerRank test, and only now do you know the company is shit and you pass. It's the same problem you face with the 60-80% unqualified applicants. I get…

I'm screening them to eliminate the garbage? I'm not sure I understand your point here. We don't choose the applicants we want to apply, the applicants choose which companies to apply for.

The problems with companies that you mention above have nothing to do with the coding test, it's the company itself. Those are perfectly valid reasons not to continue the application process. But eliminating a company because they apply a coding test as a basic level of applicant screening still strikes me as an arbitrary move that does nothing but rule out perfectly valid job opportunities.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#134

Post by crispyambulance » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:04 AM UTC

kenrikm wrote: post #118

EliRivers wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apply for jobs you've no intention of taking if offered. Use them as practice. Use them to toughen up. Knowing in advance that it doesn't matter, and that you'll never see or hear from the people involved ever again, and that the final outcome - that nothing will change and you're risking nothing - might be liberating enough that you can do it.

This is actually kind of a bad thing to do, since you're intentionally wasting other people's time.

... while getting better at interviewing and saving your own time, money and career in the process.

No reason to feel bad about it especially if it is a big corp. These days employers throw careers under the bus at the whim of asshole mba's. And, no, employer's won't agree to "informational interviews" any more.

In any case no one has to know except the interviewee.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#135

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:09 AM UTC

eric_h wrote: post #132

soham wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is only one way to toughen up: Practice. Be it interviews or sports. Be it negotiations or cooking. Practice and practice perfectly. 1. Take mock interviews from experienced engineers Go one topic at a time e.g. Recursion or Trees or DP or Multithreading etc. Before you walk into the interview, practice well. Do at least 20 problems on that topic, if not more. 2. Do practice interviews at companies you don't wa…

> Nobody explains this better than the meth guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1WiCGq-PcY That clip just increased my already substantial respect for Bryan Cranston, though I feel as though calling him the "meth guy" does him a disservice. Yes, Breaking Bad brought him a great deal of exposure, but I think that even his role in Malcolm in the Middle showed how capable he is as an actor. The fact that he performed…

[deleted]

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#136

Post by noname123 » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:09 AM UTC

eric_h wrote: post #132

soham wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is only one way to toughen up: Practice. Be it interviews or sports. Be it negotiations or cooking. Practice and practice perfectly. 1. Take mock interviews from experienced engineers Go one topic at a time e.g. Recursion or Trees or DP or Multithreading etc. Before you walk into the interview, practice well. Do at least 20 problems on that topic, if not more. 2. Do practice interviews at companies you don't wa…

> Nobody explains this better than the meth guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1WiCGq-PcY That clip just increased my already substantial respect for Bryan Cranston, though I feel as though calling him the "meth guy" does him a disservice. Yes, Breaking Bad brought him a great deal of exposure, but I think that even his role in Malcolm in the Middle showed how capable he is as an actor. The fact that he performed…

Thanks for posting this clip; it is surprisingly universal and applies to a lot of things outside of acting.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#137

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:10 AM UTC

deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

>Any suggestions on how to "toughen up"?

Keep doing the admin work to pay the bills. Switch off when you leave.

Work towards turning the other work into a viable consultancy/small business.

Stop thinking like an employee.

If you're running your own micro-startup - and it sounds like something you're perfectly capable of making this work - you won't need to worry about getting rejected.

In fact you'll probably get recruiters reaching out to you.

This may not result in a job, but it's a lot easier not to care what happens in an interview if you have a secure income stream as well as an impressive resume.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#138

Post by beeboop » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:15 AM UTC

deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

I assume you're describing some variation of anxiety. Social anxiety is helped tremendously by exposure. Go do stuff in social settings you're uncomfortable with (not anything dangerous or against your morals obviously). It will gradually get better. More interviewing practice will also make it better.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#139

Post by gingerrr » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:19 AM UTC

frcknfrckn wrote: post #125

gingerrr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a coding test as the initial barrier to even a phone screen is what I have a severe problem with. I think coding tests absolutely have their place - after a 30m high-level skillcheck over the phone, let's ask for a brief 30-45m timed code challenge to rule out the applicants who were effective enough bullshitters to clear the phone screen. But I too have seen this trend that GP calls out re: "auditions" to even…

But look at it from the company's point of view - why would they invest time in a 30-minute skill check interview for every applicant if they can just as easily run the code challenge up front and eliminate a large proportion of the unsuitable applicants?

I understand the reasons why the company would choose to do it. My argument is that they are fixing the wrong problem - and to be honest, could likely be making it worse.

If so many unqualified candidates are making it to the phone screen (which should happen after they've been resume-sorted and google searched), it's an indicator that something at the leading edge of the candidate pipeline is broken.

Asking their potential candidates to make up for their failure is not only asinine but probably locks them into a cycle of mediocrity - highly-skilled engineers are getting more leads than they care to deal with already, they're not likely to take the time to do that upfront work unless there's a very compelling draw. You know who will? Untrained devs looking for a first job.

tl;dr - the candidates that would do unpaid work for the chance of an interview, and the highly-skilled, well-sought-after engineers I'd like to hire for my team, are likely two circles without any overlap unless I have some major draw working in my favor - like signing bonus, or being a Google.

edit: accidentally a word

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#140

Post by Retra » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 12:21 AM UTC

frcknfrckn wrote: post #125

gingerrr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a coding test as the initial barrier to even a phone screen is what I have a severe problem with. I think coding tests absolutely have their place - after a 30m high-level skillcheck over the phone, let's ask for a brief 30-45m timed code challenge to rule out the applicants who were effective enough bullshitters to clear the phone screen. But I too have seen this trend that GP calls out re: "auditions" to even…

But look at it from the company's point of view - why would they invest time in a 30-minute skill check interview for every applicant if they can just as easily run the code challenge up front and eliminate a large proportion of the unsuitable applicants?

Why would a company do anything that benefits its employees?