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Apple wants the FBI to reveal how it hacked the San Bernardino killer's iPhone

latimes.com

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Re: Apple wants the FBI to reveal how it hacked the San Bernardino killer's iPhone

#111

Post by squeaky-clean »

incepted wrote: post #9

I really find this whole thing hilarious. First, it's Apple sticking it to the FBI by making a stand for privacy and receiving public accolades doing so as a champion of privacy. The FBI is the bad guy trying to invade our privacy. Now, it's the FBI sending a giant "screw you" to Apple by not only letting them know they were able to hack into the phone without Apple's help but at the same time, making a mockery of Ap…

> And now, Apple is in panic mode, slowly realizing that they went from being the hero of privacy in the modern age to the company that wasn't able to secure its phone from the FBI. From the FBI. Of all things.

> No wonder they are freaking out and they want to know how the FBI did it.

Not really sure how you reached that conclusion, as there wasn't even a single quote from an Apple employee or legal representative in the article. The only quote even related to the FBI giving the exploit method to Apple is from the product counsel at AVG Technologies.

So how exactly is Apple "freaking out"?

Re: Apple wants the FBI to reveal how it hacked the San Bernardino killer's iPhone

#112

Post by maw »

okonomiyaki3000 wrote: post #23
ccarter84 wrote: post #15

To best of my knowledge, there's no law saying the Government has to disclose squat to Apple. Given the public bickering/brinksmenship going on these past couple weeks, I doubt they'll be inclined to do so, and they're probably also bound by NDA's from Cellebrite or whoever created the hack (if the Feds even know how they did it) There's some irony in here somewhere...

Is it possible that the FBI has violated the DMCA?

My first thought as well. Thanks to clort for the link, even if I don't like what it says.

Re: Apple wants the FBI to reveal how it hacked the San Bernardino killer's iPhone

#113

Post by fjarlq »

overloaded wrote: post #81

Can anyone find any actual citation for Apple wanting "the FBI to reveal" anything? There's quotes from an AVG spokesperson in the article, and the paragraph "Attorneys for Apple are researching legal tactics to compel the government..." but no specific sources. The author, on Twitter, said that "last week" Apple said they wanted to know what the exploit was, but the announcement about a successful exploit was only t…

Good point. The only official statement from Apple that I can find is this one, which doesn't ask the FBI to reveal or do anything:

http://www.loopinsight.com/2016/03/28/apples-statement-on-go...

(I couldn't find this statement on apple.com, but it has been relayed by many news sources so I believe it is indeed official.)

Re: Apple wants the FBI to reveal how it hacked the San Bernardino killer's iPhone

#114

Post by wildmusings »

mikeash wrote: post #95
incepted wrote: post #9

I really find this whole thing hilarious. First, it's Apple sticking it to the FBI by making a stand for privacy and receiving public accolades doing so as a champion of privacy. The FBI is the bad guy trying to invade our privacy. Now, it's the FBI sending a giant "screw you" to Apple by not only letting them know they were able to hack into the phone without Apple's help but at the same time, making a mockery of Ap…

This certainly isn't how it looks to me. The FBI comes off looking like complete fools to me. They said that they needed Apple's help to get into this phone, that there was no other way, and that Apple's refusal to help endangered national security, humanity, and the universe. Then they got called in front of Congress and schooled by a Congressman, one of the last places you'd expect to find anyone remotely technical…

>They come off looking like complete fools at best, since their huge public spectacle was based on "only Apple can do this," and now that it turns out they could have done it themselves, it just looks like they're incompetent.

No one ever doubted that there was some vulnerability that exists that could be used without Apple's help. There is almost always a vulnerability. The hard part is discovering it. As soon as a third-party told them about it, they paused the case against Apple. The new information changed the facts of the case and made compelling Apple unnecessary. For the FBI to do anything else would have been perjury of the highest order.

Re: Apple wants the FBI to reveal how it hacked the San Bernardino killer's iPhone

#115

Post by wildmusings »

camillomiller wrote: post #41
incepted wrote: post #9

I really find this whole thing hilarious. First, it's Apple sticking it to the FBI by making a stand for privacy and receiving public accolades doing so as a champion of privacy. The FBI is the bad guy trying to invade our privacy. Now, it's the FBI sending a giant "screw you" to Apple by not only letting them know they were able to hack into the phone without Apple's help but at the same time, making a mockery of Ap…

>Except that if I were them, I certainly wouldn't ask that publicly, I would at least pretend I know how the FBI did it and claim that it's already fixed in the next version of the OS Wow, lying doesn't really look like the best course of action for a public traded company, I guess. >Which still means that tens of millions of iPhones are at risk today and will be for months, but at least, you get to pretend that you'…

>The FBI is STILL the bad guy, acting like criminals who won't disclose a potential vulnerability (which might as well not exists) to the manufacturer.

There is no obligation to disclose vulnerabilities. You are free to sell them to the highest bidder, including the government. The government has some damn good uses for them, see Stuxnet.

Of course, big tech companies would love it to be required to disclose vulnerabilities. That way they get the whole security community's labor for free and don't have to pay bug bounties.

Re: Apple wants the FBI to reveal how it hacked the San Bernardino killer's iPhone

#116

Post by mikeash »

wildmusings wrote: post #114
mikeash wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This certainly isn't how it looks to me. The FBI comes off looking like complete fools to me. They said that they needed Apple's help to get into this phone, that there was no other way, and that Apple's refusal to help endangered national security, humanity, and the universe. Then they got called in front of Congress and schooled by a Congressman, one of the last places you'd expect to find anyone remotely technical…

> They come off looking like complete fools at best, since their huge public spectacle was based on "only Apple can do this," and now that it turns out they could have done it themselves, it just looks like they're incompetent. No one ever doubted that there was some vulnerability that exists that could be used without Apple's help. There is almost always a vulnerability. The hard part is discovering it. As soon as a…

That's what makes them look incompetent. They insisted that they couldn't do it without Apple's help. Turns out they could, and they just didn't do their homework first. (Or, if you believe they had ulterior motives, then they didn't want to.)

Re: Apple wants the FBI to reveal how it hacked the San Bernardino killer's iPhone

#117

Post by [deleted] »

ethbro wrote: post #110
Mtinie wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's find out. As an iPhone user, I presume I have standing and could argue some form of damages. Now, is there a lawyer out there interested in discussing whether there is really any merit to bringing a suit forward? Would / could this be a class action, or in this case, is it better to seek an individual out come? Hypothetically speaking, of course, until there are proven grounds to stand on.

Legally, why couldn't you sue the government directly? Ianal, but isn't the US government (via the FBI's court proceedings) publicly stating they have access to / have used a vulnerability actionable in some way? If this were done in private that would be one thing, but they've now gone on the record as saying a usable vulnerability exists.

[deleted]

Re: Apple wants the FBI to reveal how it hacked the San Bernardino killer's iPhone

#118

Post by wildmusings »

coldcode wrote: post #77
zeofig wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now, it's the FBI sending a giant "screw you" to Apple by not only letting them know they were able to hack into the phone without Apple's help but at the same time, making a mockery of Apple's entire security claims. >it's pretty obvious that Apple has been outsmarted by a government agency. I disagree with this assessment. It's not very surprising that the FBI was able to hack into a particular iPhone by focusing…

An interesting twist would be for Apple to encourage someone to sue Apple for having a hackable phone and then having Apple supply a legal request to require the FBI to disclose the hack in order to "defend" the lawsuit. Not sure this would work but you need a legal reason to force disclosure.

It's perfectly legal to use vulnerabilities on machines that you own, publicly advertise it, and refuse to disclose the details. It's a free country. Funny that the infosec community traditionally supports this and opposes mandatory disclosure laws. If you had to disclose any vulnerabilities that you find, you'd never get paid for it. There wouldn't even be bug bounties, since those exist because of the vulnerability market.

The fact that it's the government also adds in the great deference that the courts give the government on national security issues. And it would be with good reason in this case. Vulnerabilities are used to craft attacks against our country's enemies (see Stuxnet).

Re: Apple wants the FBI to reveal how it hacked the San Bernardino killer's iPhone

#119

Post by wildmusings »

mikeash wrote: post #116
wildmusings wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They come off looking like complete fools at best, since their huge public spectacle was based on "only Apple can do this," and now that it turns out they could have done it themselves, it just looks like they're incompetent. No one ever doubted that there was some vulnerability that exists that could be used without Apple's help. There is almost always a vulnerability. The hard part is discovering it. As soon as a…

That's what makes them look incompetent. They insisted that they couldn't do it without Apple's help. Turns out they could, and they just didn't do their homework first. (Or, if you believe they had ulterior motives, then they didn't want to.)

Funny that they usually get grief from the same crowd for wanting to know everything, but now they they attacked for not knowing everything.

Re: Apple wants the FBI to reveal how it hacked the San Bernardino killer's iPhone

#120

Post by mikeash »

wildmusings wrote: post #119
mikeash wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what makes them look incompetent. They insisted that they couldn't do it without Apple's help. Turns out they could, and they just didn't do their homework first. (Or, if you believe they had ulterior motives, then they didn't want to.)

Funny that they usually get grief from the same crowd for wanting to know everything, but now they they attacked for not knowing everything.

Those are two radically different values of "know everything" you're pretending are in conflict, there.

Yes, I expect the FBI to "know everything" when it comes to techniques available to do their job. No, I don't expect the FBI to "know everything" when it comes to the contents of my private messages. There's no conflict.

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