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Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

psychologytoday.com

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Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#241

Post by studentrob »

cairo_x wrote: post #212
studentrob wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please understand, I'm not having an argument here, I'm venting some rage, big time. Nothing personal. Got it, no sweat. > Some of us have been through the ringer by bastards like the writer of that article. Well meaning bastards. True nurse ratchett evil bastard ..... has aneurysm I can understand if you've been mistreated by people who work in health. I don't see how the author is to blame or how you have come to…

Gregg is in the business of classifying and tinkering with the way seriously mentally ill people are treated and pigeonholed. Advice being given by people who don't know the answers, especially when it comes to the suicidal, is incredibly irresponsible. You know that feeling you get when something is broken and you see someone trying to fix it, and you know you can do better, and you want to push them out of the way…

> Look at his frikken tree of knowledge model

I know you're venting but you're a little off topic and hard to follow. It sounds like you have a bone to pick with this author. This sub-thread began with "warmfuzzykitten" lamenting the HN comments and now you're discussing other work by the author.

Venting is totally fine and useful. There are some other techniques for releasing frustration that are more effective. Meditation, for example, can teach you to cast aside thoughts on which you do not wish to dwell. The book Mindfulness in Plain English is a good introduction. I'm not telling you what to do, because it would be a waste of my energy. You'll make up your own mind regardless. I'm just sharing a strategy that's worked for me, alongside other things. That's what people do. We share stories, whether about good times or bad.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#242

Post by darkerside »

Fordrus wrote: post #93
Dylan16807 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Evolutionarily speaking, it seems likely that depression/anxiety are there for some purpose, and yet we treat them both like meaningless pain meant only to be banished using drugs. I believe both are signals that something in our environment is not working for us. They indicate emotional or physical needs unmet---needs for safety, autonomy, connection, etc. > Often the individual suffering is fundamentally unaware…

Oh, this is a fantastic and beautiful deconstruction of this argument, I LOVE this. The comparison to chronic pain is fantastic , because indeed, chronic pain is a side effect of many conditions, and if we were able to relieve the chronic pain somehow, we certainly would, but being currently unable, we seek means to treat the chronic pain . I've often held that the most insidious part about clinical depression is its…

Agreed, that's an interesting take. Do you know if medical professionals differentiate chronic depression from acute depression? Is "clinical" depression related to one or both of those?

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#243

Post by NoGravitas »

md224 wrote: post #112
Fordrus wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, this is a fantastic and beautiful deconstruction of this argument, I LOVE this. The comparison to chronic pain is fantastic , because indeed, chronic pain is a side effect of many conditions, and if we were able to relieve the chronic pain somehow, we certainly would, but being currently unable, we seek means to treat the chronic pain . I've often held that the most insidious part about clinical depression is its…

I have this wacky idea that maybe, just maybe we should reconsider the point at which opiates would be appropriate for treating depression. I mean maybe make them a 2nd or 3rd line treatment... right now I'm pretty sure they'd only give you opiates once that whole "induce a controlled seizure" thing fails. Sure, they're addictive, but the "opium cure" was used up until the 1950's[1] and it's not like society was over…

The way I've heard it put is that opiates are an extremely effective treatment for anxiety and depression, with the common and serious side effect of ruining your life. But I hear they're working on eliminating the side effects:

http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/12/20/ly-2456302-for-depre...

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#244

Post by drrob »

warmfuzzykitten wrote: post #162

The comments here are depressing. People who are actually depressed are saying that the author is completely wrong about their depression, while others with no experience of depression are nitpicking at them with for what passes for logic on the internet. The truth is, this PhD is not a psychiatrist, appears to have little clinical experience except whatever his "practice" has thrown his way, and, tellingly, refers t…

Couldn't agree with you more; out of the half dozen bouts of serious depression I've had in my life (I'm 32) only 1 of them had a series of direct triggers. The rest had no basis, and this is what makes them all the more discomforting; you know in your bones that there is simply nothing you can rectify in your life to make them go away.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#245

Post by lomnakkus »

tim333 wrote: post #217
Dylan16807 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes you can infer from evolution that a trait is useful. But only if the trait: 1. Is in a stable part of the genetic code, giving opportunity for bad traits to be weeded out. 2. Is not correlated with a different useful trait that overshadows its goodness/badness. 3. Shows up early enough to affect reproduction. Human intelligence is quite recent, so prerequisite #1 is not met. We have no idea if prerequisite…

#1 Dogs can get depressed so it doesn't need human intelligence. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness ) #2 Depression has a major effect, I doubt it's overshadowed #3 You get depressed teenagers So I'd think 1,2 and 3 are met.

Re #1: There's absolutely no way to know if dogs experience "depression" in the same way humans do -- even assuming the outwardly symptoms are similar.

Re #2: Your doubt does not constitute evidence in any reasonable sense.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#246

Post by oxide »

DanBC wrote: post #210
oxide wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

contrary to popular opinion these days, I think pain is undertreated and routinely so. quality of life should take priority over dependence concerns especially in the elderly.

Opioids are not a suitable treatment for long term pain, especially in the elderly. People need rapid access to pain management clinics, with weight loss and strength building exercise, and access to meds (which in long term pain are often not opioids). Giving those people opioids increases their risk of accidental death, and suicide. It gives them an addiction. But worse it does not treat their pain - they will stil…

This is ignorant at best and naive at worst. God help anyone you treat, and if you aren't a medical professional its probably for the best. Your comment makes me physically ill.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#247

Post by humbleMouse »

anon4this1 wrote: post #123
md224 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this wacky idea that maybe, just maybe we should reconsider the point at which opiates would be appropriate for treating depression. I mean maybe make them a 2nd or 3rd line treatment... right now I'm pretty sure they'd only give you opiates once that whole "induce a controlled seizure" thing fails. Sure, they're addictive, but the "opium cure" was used up until the 1950's[1] and it's not like society was over…

each year 19,000 americans die from prescription opioid overdoses and another 10,000 die from heroin overdoses which often start with prescription opioid use. In my experience (as an anaesthesiologist), people who use opioids as a response to non-pain problems are some of the most miserable people there are. It might work for a couple of weeks, but soon you're tolerant, addicted, intermittently withdrawing and your l…

I think mushrooms might be a better drug to give people than opiates. Send people to the redwood forest for a week to stay in a small cabin and eat mushrooms/smoke weed/eat good food and see how depressed they are afterwards!

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#248

Post by ars »

intenex wrote: post #191
ars wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That depression has nothing to do with your environment and only to do with your body? Yes. Exactly. And until you experience such a thing for yourself, or interact with someone like that you will 100% never believe it to be possible. Yet it is.

Nope! I was chronically suicidal and depressed from 8th grade all the way through my first semester of college at Harvard. Someone jumped off a building halfway through that first semester, and ever after, I couldn't stop thinking about killing myself. Knew I'd unequivocally off myself if I stuck around, so it finally provided the impetus for me to drop out, travel around the world, get a Thiel Fellowship, and now be…

So for you it was not like that. Did you think I meant it was only the way I said?

I meant that for some people it has zero to do with environment, not that it was like that for everyone.

Be glad it was so easy to fix for you, not everyone is so lucky.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#249

Post by ars »

jjbiotech wrote: post #231
ars wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That depression has nothing to do with your environment and only to do with your body? Yes. Exactly. And until you experience such a thing for yourself, or interact with someone like that you will 100% never believe it to be possible. Yet it is.

Yeah, you're incorrect on this one. You as a human aren't somehow totally disconnected from your environment. The environment you live in, is a part of yourself, the two can't be separated. You have more foreign bacteria living in your body than human cells. "life flows on within you and without you".

> Yeah, you're incorrect on this one

No I am not.

And like I said, till it happens to you, or you are with someone like that, you will never believe it.

I certainly never did. For some people it's environmental - for other? They are depressed for no reason whatsoever.

The rest of what you wrote is just empty phrases and has zero to do with this subject.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#250

Post by md224 »

NoGravitas wrote: post #243
md224 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this wacky idea that maybe, just maybe we should reconsider the point at which opiates would be appropriate for treating depression. I mean maybe make them a 2nd or 3rd line treatment... right now I'm pretty sure they'd only give you opiates once that whole "induce a controlled seizure" thing fails. Sure, they're addictive, but the "opium cure" was used up until the 1950's[1] and it's not like society was over…

The way I've heard it put is that opiates are an extremely effective treatment for anxiety and depression, with the common and serious side effect of ruining your life. But I hear they're working on eliminating the side effects: http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/12/20/ly-2456302-for-depre...

That does seem to be the conventional wisdom. But it's a bit contradictory, don't you think? I mean, crippling depression already ruins your life, and suicide... well, that's the ultimate life-ruiner.

Opioid replacement therapy seems to work, so I'm just not convinced that all opiates inevitably lead to doom... it feels more like FUD rather than anything backed by scientific evidence.

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