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Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

computerworld.com

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Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#21

Post by jpalomaki »

iheartmemcache wrote: post #6

I was thoroughly impressed with the judge who presided over the last ruling -- IIRC he went so far as to learn at least the basics of Java to the point where I remember being impressed by the insight of the questions he posed. There are subsets of law one can specialize in ranging from medical malpractice to obscure patent litigation, but as far as I know there are no factors linking a presiding judge to a specific s…

On software like JDK, my feeling (without thinking too much) is that the API is actually the most valuable part and the one that requires true expertise to craft.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#22

Post by raverbashing »

pjmlp wrote: post #15
akadien wrote: post #11

Oracle should pay Google for using Java in Android and keeping the language somewhere around edge of hip and cool. I wonder how long it will be before Google flips to Go or JavaScript for Android.

It will never happen. In spite all of this, Android Team has given zero support for anything other than Java on Android, even for its own languages. The NDK is anemic, because "In general, you should only use the NDK if it is essential to your app—never because you simply prefer to program in C/C++. When examining whether or not you should develop in native code, think about your requirements and see if the Android f…

Yeah, unless there's explicit orders from above I don't see them moving (and usually Java people like to live in Java world and ignores everything else)

Google should have started looking at alternatives back them and making another environment first-class on Android as well

(or maybe they can just compile Go to Dalvik and flip the switch, I don't know)

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#23

Post by pjmlp »

curt15 wrote: post #16
pjmlp wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were api compatible Java Android wouldn't be the second coming of J++, where apparently thanks to some strange events it is ok for Google to fork Java, break WORA where even many Java 6 libraries cannot run on Android, not to mention about later versions, and some devs seem to think it is ok. While with Microsoft everyone went out with their pitchforks. Android Java is nothing more than Google's J++.

J++ got into trouble for trademark issues because MS called their incompatible implementation Java(TM) and caused brand confusion. Android does not do this.

The fact is that Google forked Java, there is no difference at all.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#25

Post by sangnoir »

pjmlp wrote: post #13
signa11 wrote: post #5

afaik, the real issue is that the dalvik-vm is api compatible with oracle(sun)-jvm. iirc, api is not 'copyrightable' which seems to suggest that it might not be so good for oracle. but then again, cases like these depend a lot on proficiency of presiding judges. wasn't there an earlier judge, who learned some elementary programming while preparing for this case, and who ended up favoring google...

If it were api compatible Java Android wouldn't be the second coming of J++, where apparently thanks to some strange events it is ok for Google to fork Java, break WORA where even many Java 6 libraries cannot run on Android, not to mention about later versions, and some devs seem to think it is ok. While with Microsoft everyone went out with their pitchforks. Android Java is nothing more than Google's J++.

To refresh your memory: "The complaint charges Microsoft with trademark infringement, false advertising, breach of contract, unfair competition, interference with prospective economic advantage, and inducing breach of contract."[1]

You probably know this, but Java-the-language is not the same as Java-the-platform (VM); Google only uses the language bit, not the runtime. They created their own runtime (Dalvik, and later ART) with its own bytecode format. What Microsoft did was implement an intentionally-incompatible JVM, hopefully you see the differences between Google and Microsoft's action (both technical and the reasoning behind the actions)

Edit: changed quote from wikipedia to [1], added reference.

1.http://www.javaworld.com/article/2077055/soa/what-does-sun-s...

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#26

Post by pjmlp »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #17
pjmlp wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will never happen. In spite all of this, Android Team has given zero support for anything other than Java on Android, even for its own languages. The NDK is anemic, because "In general, you should only use the NDK if it is essential to your app—never because you simply prefer to program in C/C++. When examining whether or not you should develop in native code, think about your requirements and see if the Android f…

Never say never, that's what I thought about Apple and objective-C, and they just invented a new language for it. True, it runs in the same runtime, but it does allow them to slowly move away from 20 years of history. Mind you, the obj-C runtime / Foundation isn't badly set up at all, I'd argue it's better than the Java SDK.

As the one that raised the Go support ticket for Android, back when I was still following Go I doubt it.

That ticket was raised before Go 1.0, so I very much doubt it.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#27

Post by pjmlp »

sangnoir wrote: post #25
pjmlp wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were api compatible Java Android wouldn't be the second coming of J++, where apparently thanks to some strange events it is ok for Google to fork Java, break WORA where even many Java 6 libraries cannot run on Android, not to mention about later versions, and some devs seem to think it is ok. While with Microsoft everyone went out with their pitchforks. Android Java is nothing more than Google's J++.

To refresh your memory: "The complaint charges Microsoft with trademark infringement, false advertising, breach of contract, unfair competition, interference with prospective economic advantage, and inducing breach of contract."[1] You probably know this, but Java-the-language is not the same as Java-the-platform (VM); Google only uses the language bit, not the runtime. They created their own runtime (Dalvik, and lat…

I know pretty much what happened.

The fact is that Google forked all of it.

You cannot use anything besides a pseudo Java 6.5 (the language), because there isn't support for all features available.

You cannot make use of the full Java SDK libraries, because Google's fork only supports cherry picked portions of the JDK, to the point that people have ported JDK classes to Android to close the gaps when porting Java code.

You cannot rely JVM features, because Dalvik/ART don't support everything that it is possible in a certified JVM like invokedynamic or more updated JNI versions.

The fact is that Google broke the Java eco-system, regardless how Google fanboys want to paint the picture that Google != Microsoft.

They tried to screw Sun and take advantage of their economic misfortune.

Luckily I don't suffer from Google colored glasses.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#28

Post by bobajeff »

akadien wrote: post #11

Oracle should pay Google for using Java in Android and keeping the language somewhere around edge of hip and cool. I wonder how long it will be before Google flips to Go or JavaScript for Android.

I'd say never. That would kind of be like an apple switching to Swift for iOS.

This is even harder for the Android runtime because it's run on a virtual machine with characteristics that don't easily map to another language.

Basically if they switch to any other language all the apps that currently use Java (ie. all of them) will have to practically use their own VM -which would be slow - or reprogram everything in another language - which would be expensive.

Re: Oracle wants $9.3B for Google’s use of Java in Android

#29

Post by jessaustin »

kayoone wrote: post #20
akadien wrote: post #11

Oracle should pay Google for using Java in Android and keeping the language somewhere around edge of hip and cool. I wonder how long it will be before Google flips to Go or JavaScript for Android.

Right ? If they keep putting Google under fire for the use of Java, they will only accelerate the process of Google moving away from Java (which is a huge task mind you) and as a result Java will loose a lot of relevance.

Google have indicated a future Android-Chrome merger. Although the public announcements were to the effect of Android simply replacing Chrome, there has been speculation about other outcomes. Perhaps this suit will encourage movement in the other direction, from Android to Chrome.
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