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Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

psychologytoday.com

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Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#191

Post by intenex »

ars wrote: post #155
blisse wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What really is the exact opposite here? That depression has nothing to do with your environment and only to do with your body?

> That depression has nothing to do with your environment and only to do with your body? Yes. Exactly. And until you experience such a thing for yourself, or interact with someone like that you will 100% never believe it to be possible. Yet it is.

Nope! I was chronically suicidal and depressed from 8th grade all the way through my first semester of college at Harvard. Someone jumped off a building halfway through that first semester, and ever after, I couldn't stop thinking about killing myself. Knew I'd unequivocally off myself if I stuck around, so it finally provided the impetus for me to drop out, travel around the world, get a Thiel Fellowship, and now be surrounded by the most amazing group of friends, family, and coworkers, and to be working on something I truly find meaningful.

Haven't been depressed or suicidal in the slightest since I came out here to SF and started living an autonomous life on my own trajectory. Was 100% circumstantial and situational for me, took zero drugs and professional therapy didn't do anything. Changing my life circumstances did everything.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#192

Post by intenex »

Agreed 100% here. I was chronically suicidal and depressed from 8th grade all the way through my first semester of college at Harvard. Someone jumped off a building halfway through that first semester, and ever after, I couldn't stop thinking about killing myself. Knew I'd unequivocally off myself if I stuck around, so it finally provided the impetus for me to drop out, travel around the world, get a Thiel Fellowship, and now be surrounded by the most amazing group of friends, family, and coworkers, and to be working on something I truly find meaningful.

Haven't been depressed or suicidal in the slightest since I came out here to SF and started living an autonomous life on my own trajectory half a decade ago. Was 100% circumstantial and situational for me, took zero drugs and professional therapy didn't do anything. Changing my life circumstances did everything.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#193

Post by tim333 »

true_religion wrote: post #27
pc2g4d wrote: post #19

Amen to this article. As one who myself once believed my depression "came out of nowhere" (but which, in retrospect, was an obvious symptom of my emotionally destructive family and school environment) and who tried for many years to smother those feelings with antidepressants, I feel strongly that this article presents a wiser path. Evolutionarily speaking, it seems likely that depression/anxiety are there for some p…

I'm not sure why you are calling this a new paradigm. Don't most, if not all, therapists deal with depression as a symptom for necessary changes in life circumstance? Yes, every particular case is different, but in general, therapy is meant to motivate you to make a change---either in perspective, or practice or upon external sources of angst.

My experience is no, most therapists don't deal with depression as a symptom for necessary changes in life circumstances. They'll expect you to talk about your feelings and so on. I've never heard of one saying your life sucks, change your job and make some friends. Which would often actually be helpful.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#194

Post by tim333 »

wonderlust wrote: post #81
fucking_tragedy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are suicidal ideation/attempts and 'successful' suicides explained by this hypothesis?

As I read this, its not a hypothesis, nor is it a theory. Its just a long value statement about how to think about what's going on. You can accept or ignore this, and it won't change the science at all.

As I read it

"Depression and anxiety are, for the large majority of cases, emotional signals that one’s psychological health is not ideal and that one’s psychosocial/relational needs are not being met."

looks like a theory and and experimentally testable and falsifiable one at that. Take a bunch of depressed people, try to fix their relationship needs along the lines mentioned in the article, survey the people who now have friends, get on with their family and so on and see if they are still depressed and compare to a control group. Simples.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#195

Post by papapra »

pc2g4d wrote: post #19

Amen to this article. As one who myself once believed my depression "came out of nowhere" (but which, in retrospect, was an obvious symptom of my emotionally destructive family and school environment) and who tried for many years to smother those feelings with antidepressants, I feel strongly that this article presents a wiser path. Evolutionarily speaking, it seems likely that depression/anxiety are there for some p…

At the same time some people are just more neurotic(and genetics has a big role), it's not so simple

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#196

Post by jdietrich »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #61
pc2g4d wrote: post #19

Amen to this article. As one who myself once believed my depression "came out of nowhere" (but which, in retrospect, was an obvious symptom of my emotionally destructive family and school environment) and who tried for many years to smother those feelings with antidepressants, I feel strongly that this article presents a wiser path. Evolutionarily speaking, it seems likely that depression/anxiety are there for some p…

> Evolutionarily speaking, it seems likely that depression/anxiety are there for some purpose, and yet we treat them both like meaningless pain meant only to be banished using drugs. I believe both are signals that something in our environment is not working for us. They indicate emotional or physical needs unmet---needs for safety, autonomy, connection, etc. > Often the individual suffering is fundamentally unaware…

A large proportion of chronic pain is iatrogenic, or the product of maladaptive coping strategies. The canonical example is back pain; Standard medical advice was once a long period of bedrest, but this further weakened the supportive musculature of the back, creating a vicious cycle of pain and inactivity. The standard advice is now the exact opposite; Exercise is essential in spite of the pain, for both physical and psychological reasons.

There are often complex psychosocial factors involved, with access to disability benefits playing a substantial role in a large proportion of cases. Long-term use of opiates can cause hyperalgesia and rebound pain due to tolerance and withdrawal. Chronic pain is not simply a spontaneous biological phenomenon.

In the relational frame theory that underpins acceptance and commitment therapy, similar mechanisms are seen as integral to chronic anxiety and depression. Experiential avoidance is a common response to unpleasant emotions, but avoiding stimuli that trigger painful emotions tends to cause a paradoxical increase in the intensity and frequency of those painful emotions. Managed exposure to these stimuli is an essential component of a wide range of behavioural therapies.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#197

Post by tim333 »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #61
pc2g4d wrote: post #19

Amen to this article. As one who myself once believed my depression "came out of nowhere" (but which, in retrospect, was an obvious symptom of my emotionally destructive family and school environment) and who tried for many years to smother those feelings with antidepressants, I feel strongly that this article presents a wiser path. Evolutionarily speaking, it seems likely that depression/anxiety are there for some p…

> Evolutionarily speaking, it seems likely that depression/anxiety are there for some purpose, and yet we treat them both like meaningless pain meant only to be banished using drugs. I believe both are signals that something in our environment is not working for us. They indicate emotional or physical needs unmet---needs for safety, autonomy, connection, etc. > Often the individual suffering is fundamentally unaware…

>Depression is similarly crippling and unhelpful.

Though it must have some function or evolution would have got rid of it. My theory is keeping your head down may be helpful if you are screwing up socially. These days if the people who know you don't like you you can just move but in the hunter gatherer days that may have been fatal.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#198

Post by DanBC »

graycat wrote: post #41
DanBC wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the expert claimed that it is known that psychotherapy, e.g., as suggested in the OP, doesn't work for anxiety or some of its other symptoms, obsessive-compulsive disorder, social phobia, paranoia, That's an interesting bit of advice. English NICE recommends psychotherapy for front line treatment of anxiety. https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/qs53

My info was first hand from the Chief of Psychiatry, Westchester County Hospital, NY, USA. He seemed darned serious, bright, well informed, enormously experienced, and competent.

Psychotherapy comes in 2 broad forms.

Short term CBT style (which is recommended first line treatment) and long form therapies such as psychdynamic counselling. These long form talking therapies tend not to be useful for anxiety.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#199

Post by m0llusk »

Perhaps, but it is clearly more complicated than that. PTSD appears to be related to changes in the amygdala that make anxiety reactions more bursty and intense than they would otherwise be. What exactly triggers the reaction is not the problem as much as what happens next within the brain and thus the mind.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#200

Post by amelius »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #61
pc2g4d wrote: post #19

Amen to this article. As one who myself once believed my depression "came out of nowhere" (but which, in retrospect, was an obvious symptom of my emotionally destructive family and school environment) and who tried for many years to smother those feelings with antidepressants, I feel strongly that this article presents a wiser path. Evolutionarily speaking, it seems likely that depression/anxiety are there for some p…

> Evolutionarily speaking, it seems likely that depression/anxiety are there for some purpose, and yet we treat them both like meaningless pain meant only to be banished using drugs. I believe both are signals that something in our environment is not working for us. They indicate emotional or physical needs unmet---needs for safety, autonomy, connection, etc. > Often the individual suffering is fundamentally unaware…

> If a situation is causing no problems outside of depression/anxiety, and you took away the depression/anxiety mechanism, there would be nothing wrong with it.

The problem is that the connection between depression/anxiety and interpersonal relationships has been programmed into our systems by evolution. So the question remains if it is wise to alter our biochemistry to suppress mental illness.

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